(no subject)

[liliaeth]

I think I'm starting to have a problem in both Supernatural's RPS as well as the FPS fandom.

Lately I've started to notice more and more people writing Jared, or even worse, Sam, as the bottom in the pairing. (at least with Jared there's no canon personality to do away with, but Sam is so obviously a top in canon that putting him as the bottom in any pairing pulls me right out of the story) That along with the rise of Misha/Castiel centric kink fic. I don't like it, and not just for aesthetic reasons.

I know it's nobody elses problem but mine, but I'm just not as emotionally attached to Jared, Sam, Misha or Castiel as I am to Dean and Jensen. And I really dislike reading Jensen or Dean written as the top. It just doesn't suit either character, at all(Dean is just so deliciously submissive in most of his interactions with women and he looks so pretty when dominated, that having him on top just takes something away from his potential). Well that and I tend to emotionally invest in the bottom in the pairing. So if you put a character I'm not as invested in, as the bottom of the pairing, I just won't connect as strongly to your fic as I would to one with Jensen or Dean as the bottom.

It's annoying really, when fandom seems to be moving in a direction that holds little to no interest to me, and I wish there was a way to get more people back into writing Dean or Jensen as the bottom *pouts*

Also added on to this...

If you want me to start liking Sam again after s8, then the answer isn't Dean finding out just how bad Sam really had it while Dean was in Purgatory, cause right now, I find it hard enough to have sympathy with Sam, without the writer having Dean needing to start feeling sorry for his brother.

What I need to read is Sam realizing just how bad things were for his brother in Purgatory, him to start feeling sorry for what he did to his brother and maybe possibly, him starting to show some remorse over his attitude towards his brother.

I find it hard enough to keep liking Sam, and the very last thing I need is someone going on the woe poor Sam path, cause right now, I just don't fucking care.

Comments

[serendip50.livejournal.com]

I feel like you...I have noticed especially in the kink memes an abundance of bottom Jared more so than in previous years. However, I flick through journals that I know write bottom Jensen or Dean and read fics which I perhaps missed from the past or even recent. I also have many older and new fics featuring bottom Jensen or Dean in my extensive reading list...so.

I follow, track only those writers whom I know write the bottom of my preference. Though I would say that a lot of these authors, from even a year ago, seem to have left this fandom or moved to another site and of course that only exacerbates the irritation you highlight. In some cases they are just more involved in rl and find it difficult to post regularly.

It's disheartening when some of the most prolific writers whom I followed, and dare I say wonderfully expansive (lengthy involved stories) imaginative and cognitive in their writing, have left:(.

I love J2 .... but more and more I am thinking of finding another pairing that speaks to me as these two have done for so many years:).
Having said that there are still writers out there that I track for their bottom Jensen stories. I'm not so invested in Sam/Dean.

[liliaeth]

This might be odd, but I only seem to be interested in Sam/Dean if Sam's evil... (or if it's an au where they aren't brothers. To me, pairing them up cheapens the relationship they do have)

I think a big problem for me in the majority of Sam/Dean fics is that they treat it as normal, as if the part where they're brothers is just a minor obstacle that everyone around them will just ignore. (well that and most Sam/Dean fics seem to fall in a trap of where the story becomes all about them being together and having sex, instead of about the supposed plot...)

Oddly enough, with some exceptions, J2 doesn't seem to suffer from those issues, whereas I'll only read destiel if Cas is the top/dominant partner in the relationship.

The ones with Cas as the bottom, just feel off to me. (I think it's because far too many people make Cas way too nice compared to how he is in canon. Cas might be funny from our perspective, but even when he was insane on the show he wasn't 'sweet'. And a lot of destiel writers who write Castiel as submissive seem to ignore that, too focused on the angel part to keep the 'warrior of God' part in mind.

But the one thing that'll pull me out of a fic faster than anything, is someone writing a J2 fic with bottom Jared, where Jensen calls Jared 'little one'.

Cause then I'm sitting there wondering if they've ever even seen a picture of Jared...

[serendip50.livejournal.com]

WOW....I do believe we like to read exactly the same type of stories in every dynamic and genre:). If I read Sam/Dean it would preferably be a take on evil!Sam. One of my most favourite authors leonidaslion (who moved to AOO some time ago) wrote the most satisfying, gorgeous and prevalent of this trope. Other writers who have since left but wrote stunning bottom Dean or Jensen fic were blynnk, titheniel, splashpink and slashboyz of those I remember....Oh how I miss them!
I also prefer to read top Cas (or Misha) and my favourite author for destiel remains the indefatigable highermagic. She is resplendent and imaginative in her story telling. Actually I think she might be the only author I read for Cas/Dean....lol. Not really a big enough kink for me.

Atm I'm reading from...Fedaykin_here, meus_venator, alezig, ashtraythief, ash_carpenter, saltandburnboys and silica_glass amongst a few that are still posting.

Which authors do you read/recommend for your bottom Jensen or Dean fix?

[liliaeth]

I suck at remembering author names*g*, but I'm currently following Carry on by TamrynEradani, which is a destiel au. (for some reason I seem to like destiel human au better than the more canonical kind)

It's bottom Dean (of course) and has Dean as a paid submissive working for Castiel, in order to pay Sam's college expenses. What's so interesting about it, is that it's praisekink. There's bdsm, but it's more about Cas building Dean up, than the usual humiliation often found in bdsm stories.

I should probably also mention that I think I already have all those people you mentioned friended on lj*eg*

[serendip50.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the rec...I will definitely take a look:)...I don't know that writer.
I forgot to mention the delectably awesome and totally original Soncnica! Great stories from her...and loads on the horizon according to her last post, I hope they are preferable dynamics!, they usually are.:).

Have you read The Doors of Time? I rather think everyone has....lol.

[serendip50.livejournal.com]

Wooohooo...Carry On has loads of chapters. I love the longer stories they are much more developed.

Yup

[ultimateground7.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't really understand why you no longer like Sam character, but I think thats your personal choice thus I can't interfere no matter how much I wanted to argue because I think there's nothing wrong with Sam in the few last season, I more complaining (because I can't be critism) about the plot / story line, still much more better than soap opera in my courty though. But on the point of Jared bottoming in many fanfiction lately, yeah I totally agree with you. I've been in this fandom longer than any fandom that I've ever know. There's just so much prompt or summary of the story lately that I'll likely want to read if only they make version where Jensen is the bottom.

Re: Yup

[liliaeth]

I think my biggest problem with Sam is that I'm pissed off with his behavior in s8. He didn't even bother to look for Dean, and instead of showing at least some slight bit of remorse over that, he just acted annoyed that Dean would even bring it up. And then the whole blackmailing Dean into silence by threatening he'd leave if Dean dared to talk about his feelings on the subject.

Sam didn't even seem sorry about it.

I think a big part of why I'm so annoyed is because I expect better of Sam. Ive loved the guy for the past seven seasons, and to see him treating Dean like that...It's like the writers took a class in how to write Sam from a Sam bashers perspective and he just didn't feel like Sam anymore

Connecting to S8 Sam

[womanofletters.livejournal.com]

I completely understand your reaction. I think they did Sam's character a huge disservice in S8, and I prefer to think of it as the writers just plain messing up. (Let's put it this way. In any S8 fic _I_ write, Sam did actually look for Dean. He just didn't find him.)

That being said, I never thought of the question of Sam or Jared as "bottom" or "top" in any relationship. Maybe because I don't write M fics, or because I usually pair either Sam or Dean with a female OC? So your post has given me food for thought. I never saw Dean as submissive, though.

Re: Connecting to S8 Sam

[liliaeth]

Oh I've found Dean on obvious submissive from s1 on. I've never seen him as even remotely dominant in any of his relationships.

I think the worst part of s8, is that they could have easily solved half the problem with Sam, if they'd had him mention that he tried to look for Dean, and didn't have a clue where even to begin, or that he tried, and failed.

My biggest issue never was about Sam not finding Dean, it's that as far as we've seen in canon, he never even bothered to look.

Hell I was all for Dean being with Lisa, because if he hadn't had her, he'd probably have gotten himself killed within a week. But... we know that he did try to find a way to get Sam out of hell and couldn't find anything.

And that's the writer's fault, because they should have given Sam the same out. (Well that and they should have made Sam's relationship with Amelia more interesting, maybe show Sam as more of an outsider in an attempt at a regular life, anything to put some life in that relationship, other than make it a soap opera)

And then they worsened the issue there already was with Sam, by having him act as if Dean being back was an annoyance that got in the way of his chance at a normal life for most of the first half of the season, constantly threatening to leave.

It's why the final scene of s8 utterly fell flat for me, because all of a sudden we're supposed to believe that Sam feels bad about letting Dean down, when he clearly didn't give a fuck about any of that before in the first half of the season. (well that and it felt like though he didn't want Dean, he didn't want Dean to have anyone else either)

I mean, a lot of people complain about Sera, but at least her Sam, even when he was soulless, still felt like the same character. The Sam in s8 was completely disconnected from the Sam of the first seven seasons.

Re: Connecting to S8 Sam

[womanofletters.livejournal.com]

I think there were ways to understand where Sam was coming from -- if you saw him as a major trauma case. I saw the whole relationship with Amelia as something he fell into because he was hurting so badly, he was in so much pain from losing Dean, and she was hurting form losing Don. So much more could have been done with that. Where you saw him as "not giving a fuck", I saw him as being as unemotional as possible when it came to Dean because he was afraid to feel again, because he didn't want to lose him again, he couln't bear that. So he was protecting himself. I thought he gave too much of a fuck. It was the only way I could reconcile how they were playing Sam's character in the first half of the season -- as someone who was terribly, emotionally withdrawn from his brother.

I almost felt like we were watching Soulless Sam again.

They never went into that, never explained it. And I think that was essential. His emotional disconnection was so unlike Sam, it smacked of someone who was very badly damaged.

The whole problem with Season 8 was timing. They gave way too much time to the Amelia relationship and never gave us any payoff from it. If you spend half a season on something, I expect it to mean something at the end of the season. And really, Amelia didn't mean much in the end. And they had Sam acting wildly out of character but never explained it. And Jeremy Carver, in an interview I read, didn't seem to feel there was a need to.

That's poor plotting of the story arc.

I could see Sam's guilt at the end of the season because that's how Sam _would_ react. And the whole "Benny's a vampire" argument -- well, I pretty much put that down to jealousy. Something like "he's replaced me". I could get that, actually, because it fit with Sam's feelings of being an inadequate brother, which we've seen in previous seasons. The second half of the season resonated much more with me. The first half just seemed poorly done.

Re: Connecting to S8 Sam

[saltandburnboys.livejournal.com]

Totally barging into this convo like a bitch coz you seem to be the only person who agrees with me! I don't accept any of the arguments about Sam not looking for Dean. Broken, hurt, dying from heart-break - none of those reasons excuse not even looking for him.

Had Dean died, had his head been cut off, shot etc and Sam had had to bury him, I'd have had no problem with him moving on. But he let Dean suffer, alone...with all the knowledge he has of the supernatural, all the tools at his disposal. It's so OOC, I'm almost sure the writers were high when they wrote that storyline.

Loads of people say that Dean did the same thing...he didn't. He said that when he went to Lisa, he checked every book, every way to get Sam out, even though he'd promised not to.

Btw, since I haven't seen season eight, does Sam ever apologise for not looking for Dean?

xx

[samaya256.livejournal.com]

I feel exactly like you but on the opposite end of the spectrum . I cant read any bottom Dean/Jensen fics at all. I used to read switch/ top jared/sam fics but now its not possible for me at all. I don't know why but the way they treat Dean in Canon esp in latest season makes me really feel bad. So I like to see him getting control/respect at least in fiction. Which is very rare to find anyhow. Its like all the injustice really gets to me. And one more thing is I don't like when roles are assigned based on looks, like if someone's is pretty means they are bottom. Anyhow sorry if it is offensive to you really frustrated with spn right now. And this is like my first comment on LJ.

[liliaeth]

Oh I love discussion, in case you hadn't noticed yet*g*

I don't know why but the way they treat Dean in Canon esp in latest season makes me really feel bad. So I like to see him getting control/respect at least in fiction. Which is very rare to find anyhow. Its like all the injustice really gets to me.

It's odd, but the reason you give why you'll only read topDean, is the exact reason why I'll only read bottomDean.

In my experience, most stories, esp. kink meme fics are centered around the bottom. The top is there only for the bottom's benefit and can easily be replaced by pretty much any other character.

It's the bottom who's the emotional center of not just the fic as a whole, but the plot as well.

I'm just sick and tired of seeing Dean used as little more than Sam's caretaker, only there to supply Sam's needs, protect Sam, comfort Sam.... see the theme here?

As the top, Dean gets relegated to being little more than the bottom's nursemaid and protector, once again, getting put on the sidelines for the benefit of the bottom, whether it's Cas, Sam, or in a J2 fic, Misha or Jared. And I'm kinda sick and tired of seeing that on the show for the past three seasons.

Sam's emotional issues just don't matter nearly as much to me as Dean's do. When i read a fic, I want to read about Dean's issues, Dean's pain. I want to see Dean comforted, cared about, protected. I want to see him be the star of the story. And as the top of the pairing, he won't be that. Because in my experience, most slash pairings really don't care nearly as much about the top as they do about the bottom. Even in those cases where the story is written from the top's pov, the emotional heft of the story is still about the bottom and what the bottom is going through.

[samaya256.livejournal.com]

Okay I understand from where you are coming. But I think there is a fundamental difference in the way we watch the show. For me I started watching because of dean. Still remember watching skin and thinking that this is going to be my fav show. So I saw/still see that hero in dean. The unsung hero who sacrifices himself for higher good be it saving people, family or world. yeah he is damaged but who isn't and frankly for me it was great that he overcame that damage (to some extent) by himself and enjoyed hunting. So even when he sold his soul I could understand cause I would've done the same for my sister in those circumstances. So what attracted me to this character was his strength and attitude. And after hell JA portrayed the trauma very realistic and I felt like even when he is shattered he held that inner strength. I liked the character very much till first half of the 5th season.

For me dean never was submissive, he was merely doing what needs to be done and usually he was left with no option but follow. Sam had/might still have issues with pride and dean had to make difficult decisions esp in season 5 and I cant blame him as world was at stake. I really don't want to talk about second half of 5th season because that is a can of worms waiting to be opened. So overall I admired Dean even with his issues.

I think where we really differ is this. I am not interested in emotions that much. And even if Dean is damaged to great extent due to all the experiences he had, I'd like him to overcome them by himself. I don't want him to be protected/cherished/comforted by other characters. To me he is a warrior/protector(that does not mean I want him to be sam's or anyone else's caretaker...no) I want him to have a voice and demand whenever he is mistreated like we all do. All the angst is pointless after sometime. My belief is only one who can help someone is themselves only.

And I would like to see dean in a position of power. That's because he is the only one who doesn't want/misuse it. So he deserves it. But prob that would never happen. Or he should let go and snap like stop being the moral center of the show.That would give a new turn to the show. But again that's my day dreaming. Because of all these I can never see him as bottom in any relationship its like some cosmic imbalance to me. It was really great chatting with you. I have other thoughts on what you posted about the portraying of top/bottom in the fandom but I think I rant too much as it is. If you like we can continue the discussion. Anyhow have a good day.

[saltandburnboys.livejournal.com]

God, do I feel you on the abundance of bottom!Jared prompts and stories at the moment. I've had to stop tracking SPN kink meme prompts because of it. In the case of SPN kink meme, I genuinely think it's just a couple of people going on mad posting sprees and as much as I'm fine with people posting whatever they want...could they just maybe leave a little bit of a break between there re-prompts of every bottom!Jared prompt that's ever been posted? I'm not judging, really I'm not, but each round, I'm left so uninspired that I haven't written anything new in months!

And I know it's stereotyping and I'm by no means an expert of gay relationships but,,,I just can't picture Jared or Sam as the bottom. Sam is a complete control freak and, if you look at every single sex scene he's ever had on the show, he dominated the hell out of his women. dean just doesn't. He craves guidance, leadership...he's the perfect little soldier - he's submissive at heart, in my opinion, and so damn desperate to be loved, I just can't see him dominating anyone. To be fair, making that canon was the reason I loved the Amazon episode...that girl topped the hell out of him.

I haven't seen season eight but I'm already irritated that they gave the storyline to Sam. I love Sam, I do, but I've always seen the show as being about dean and those trials would've been a perfect story arc for him...and we've just had crazy!Sam for like half a series...I wanted some prime Dean!pain. Coz to me, with everything I've read, they seem to have just skimmed over all his PTSD and how Sam FREAKING DIDN'T LOOK FOR HIM! How he didn't even try!!

Plus, I'm still annoyed they sent Sam to hell in season five (that was Dean's storyline, not Sam's) so I kind of wanted to be vindicated in this season with Dean doing the trials. *sighs*.

Sorry for that huge rant but I can hardly find anyone else who's feeling at all put out by all the bottom!Jared/Sam in the fandom at the moment...

[samaya256.livejournal.com]

"I just can't picture Jared or Sam as the bottom. Sam is a complete control freak and, if you look at every single sex scene he's ever had on the show, he dominated the hell out of his women. dean just doesn't. He craves guidance, leadership...he's the perfect little soldier - he's submissive at heart, in my opinion, and so damn desperate to be loved, I just can't see him dominating anyone. To be fair, making that canon was the reason I loved the Amazon episode...that girl topped the hell out of him."

Hi, I just see this part differently. Just trying to give my perspective. In SPN these sex scenes are used to depict the mentality of the character's at that point of time. Sex scene in 'Heart' came at the time when Sam was supposed to go dark side. Same with Ruby ie he was already choosing the dark side. So I think its shown rough. Same with soulless sam. Its like they show how he is not himself/falling through slippery slope in a way.
Now in contrast to that we have scene with Anna. Here Dean is damaged/he is looking for forgiveness cause he feels guilty for torturing souls in hell. Their lovemaking reflects that. Its not out of desperation like in Sam's case. Finally regarding the amazon episode. I agree the girl topped the hell out of him. But you know what she is an amazon she is supposed to. If she was passive/submissive then her being a supernatural warrior(she was not human)would have been laughable.
I confess that I am not very much aware of Dom/Sub dynamics(not that much into it) but to me one who cares about others doesn't mean submissive. Dean usually is the one who leads. We can see that in purgatory very well. So I really have to disagree with daddy's little soldier comment. Usually a good leader is the one who is adaptable, innovative, takes responsibility of his and other's actions and can follow others if required. According to me Dean fits this. But as Einstein said there is no absolute truth. We all see what we want to see.

"I haven't seen season eight but I'm already irritated that they gave the storyline to Sam. I love Sam, I do, but I've always seen the show as being about dean and those trials would've been a perfect story arc for him...and we've just had crazy!Sam for like half a series... Coz to me, with everything I've read, they seem to have just skimmed over all his PTSD and how Sam FREAKING DIDN'T LOOK FOR HIM! How he didn't even try!!"

Completely agree with you. In fact I have stopped watching the supernatural after first half of season. I am really not into watching Dean doing house work/bending over for everyone in general. That is not the character I fell in love with. When there is no balance in a relationship then it becomes painful to watch.

"God, do I feel you on the abundance of bottom! Jared prompts and stories at the moment. I've had to stop tracking SPN kink meme prompts because of it. In the case of SPN kink meme, I genuinely think it's just a couple of people going on mad posting sprees and as much as I'm fine with people posting whatever they want...could they just maybe leave a little bit of a break between there re-prompts of every bottom!Jared prompt that's ever been posted?"

Hey I could replace bottom!Jared with bottom!Jensen in your comment and its me:) Anyhow I know it feels really frustrating when someone cant get what they really want to read. I mean I tried reading bottom!Jensen recently and literally throw up. But think positive, you are in a better place than me. You can check this year's bigbang and get a lot of bottom!Dean/Jensen stories.

Now I have to end this rant. I sincerely apologize if I offended you in any way or jumped in without an invite. And English is not my first language so sorry for any mistakes.

@liliaeth -If this discussion is not welcome please let me know and I will delete my comments.(I can right? Still new to LJ).
Have a good day.

[saltandburnboys.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I do understand that. There does seem to be an abundance of one or the other in the fandom...so, when I first came along, the fandom was very much swinging the bottom!Jensen/Dean way and now it's obviously not. So I do sympathise with you there.

Lol, it's funny how differently people see things, huh? I've always seem Dean as a follower, not weak (I've never thought he was weak - he's the strongest character I've ever seen on a TV show, in my opinion) - I just see him as moulding himself into whatever his loved ones want him to be...and, in the process, gets himself all twisted up because of it.

But, I can totally see your side and what you said about their sex scenes. I obviously just see it the way I want! ;-)

Yeah, see, I love Sam. I'm a Dean!girl but I love Sam; there aren't many characters I don't like actually which I why I love the show so much but season eight!Sam has made me so angry. And I think it's just because he'd NEVER do that. I've always thought he was selfish (sorry, if you're a huge Sam!girl) - it's his biggest flaw and they all have them in SPN. Which, again, is why I like it so much...it's so true to life - no one's perfect. But, one, he's become much less selfish as he's grown older and wiser and, two, he's never been selfish when Dean's been in danger. Leaving him for Stanford might've been selfish but Sam knew Dean was safe at the time - he could leave with a relatively clear conscience then. But the idea of him just saying 'Well, I think he might be dead, so I'm not even gonna check' is just ridiculous. :-/

xx

[samaya256.livejournal.com]

"Yeah, see, I love Sam. I'm a Dean!girl but I love Sam; there aren't many characters I don't like actually which I why I love the show so much but season eight!Sam has made me so angry. And I think it's just because he'd NEVER do that. I've always thought he was selfish (sorry, if you're a huge Sam!girl) - it's his biggest flaw and they all have them in SPN. Which, again, is why I like it so much...it's so true to life - no one's perfect. But, one, he's become much less selfish as he's grown older and wiser and, two, he's never been selfish when Dean's been in danger. Leaving him for Stanford might've been selfish but Sam knew Dean was safe at the time - he could leave with a relatively clear conscience then. But the idea of him just saying 'Well, I think he might be dead, so I'm not even gonna check' is just ridiculous."

No I am not a Sam!Girl in case you haven't figured it out. I consider myself as Dean!Fan, somehow Dean!Girl seems too much like teenage adoration. But you know what the way Sam treated Dean in latest season I am not at all shocked by it. He acted like Dean has done some crime by coming back and spoiling his perfect life. So in the light of this behavior if I see the past seasons then I can totally argue and prove that he never liked Dean but just tolerated him. So this is definitely in character for him. I just had to remove my "brotherly bond" goggles to see it. On top of that Dean does not have anything to do on the show and even if he is pretty I cant just watch that. I mean when a character becomes one dimensional then it is boring.

"I've always seen the show as being about dean and those trials would've been a perfect story arc for him"

Somehow I missed this part of your comment. But in reality show is about Sam and the story is told from Dean's POV. Audience usually get attached to POV character but that does not make POV character protagonist . So this POV character's storyline's are secondary or dropped off. He is related to story only through the protagonist. If I take this view then I can totally see why Sam is very important to Dean but the feeling is not reciprocated. Most of the fanfics follow the same path because basic structure is already given. In conclusion this is just a show and I should stop banging my head and accept the reality.

[saltandburnboys.livejournal.com]

You honestly think Sam never cared for Dean? What about when Dean died or when he 'fake' died? He went completely off the rails.

Well again, I suppose that's a point to view thing again. I think the show was meant to be about Sam (which is why Jared is billed first), but for me, it very much became about Dean once their father became involved.

Lol, true, I probably am a little juvenile in how much I like the show...but, you know, I'm so serious about real life, I figure I'll give myself a break and go fangirl-ly about Dean.

xx

[samaya256.livejournal.com]

Of course Sam cared for Dean during the deal time. Dean was dying for him, so he had to care otherwise character would've become unwatchable. I mean I would care even if some stranger dies for me, that is expected of all decent human beings. But this care doesn't mean Sam respects Dean Or its not equal to the way Dean cares about Sam.

Yeah for me also show had become about Dean, but I was just pointing out that that is not the case in reality. So that I can be ready for whatever they do with Dean's character. If I see him as a sidekick then it will hurt less to see him useless. Sorry for the rant but sometimes I feel that I should've never started watching this show :(

[saltandburnboys.livejournal.com]

Rant away, I don't mind. :-)

I'll never regret watching it even if I hate season eight coz the show changed my life...I know it's cheesy but I started watching during a really bad time in my life...and it made it not so bad. I could never regret that.

I won't ever agree about Sam because I love his character too but I do agree with one thing, I don't think he cares about Dean as much as Dean cares about him...but I think that's purely from their messed up upbringing leading to Dean's unhealthy need to protect him.

xx