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liliaeth(if only the response bit allows more characters in a post
anyway, her post can be found at http://www.livejournal.com/users/dlgood/2318.html?view=18702 )
Ah, so you find it a good positive message to show that it's okay for a woman to rape, abuse and destroy a man. Cause hey when a woman does it it's a sign of empowerment?
Nice message to show to young boys and men around the world... if your girlfriend beats you up and abuses you, it's ok, and normal, cause it makes her a strong and empowered woman?
I'm a spuffy, unashamedly so, because unlike Angel, Spike 'chose' his punishment. It's not the soul that's important, it's the fact that he realized he was wrong and went to get his soul out of 'free choice' because he wanted to be 'the kind of man that would never...'
Spike realized he did the one thing he could never forgive himself for and 'chose' to change.
Something Angel nor Xander did after their rapes or in Xander's case, attempted rape(see the Pack)
Remember how in gone Buffy raped Spike, or tried to?
I'm not so much talking about the throwing him to a wall and starting to have sex with him before he could even realize it was her. I'm talking about after he said a clear "NO" and she still continued, despite her greater physical strenght.
And he had to throw her out of his crypt, the sanctity of his own home? Remember how she pouted about how he'd had the guts to throw her out. Not even the slightest realization of what she'd just done. And compare that to Spike's reaction in Seeing Red...
For that alone I'd be willing to forgive him because at least Spike understood what he did wrong and tried to 'change' to become a better person who'd never harm her again.
I believe Joss handled the post-rape situation pretty decently, though the mistake he made was not handling Buffy's past as an abuser. She was never forced to deal with her crimes, never confronted by anyone to how she did wrong.
And yes she did.
You said that rape's about power...
Not in Seeing Red...
Spike's actions weren't premeditated, they weren't to give him power. Hell the entire 'relationship' that Buffy forced them into proved that Buffy held all the cards, all the power.
If the relationship stayed in the dark, that's cause Buffy wanted it so.
You wonder about Buffy's individual wishes to love or not love Spike? What about Spike's individual wishes and desires? Cause those were ignored all through season six and seven.
Rape is a serious situation, and I believe that Spike was capable of it in the past, but so's Angel...
(remember Drusilla, Holtz's wife, the gypsy girl whom Angel had the guts to call stupid (sorry, just watched 'Angel' and still furious with him over that)...)
But unlike Angel, Spike realized what he did was wrong in Seeing Red. Spike started a voluntary change, because once Buffy kicked him back, the humanity in him was strong enough to make him come to his senses and realize what he was doing and stop.
Yes stop. If Buffy was supposedly so weakened at that point, then Spike could have tried again. If that had been Angelus in the room, he would have gone on, no matter how Buffy tried to fight. Spike on the other hand hated himself almost the second he hit the wall and started having flashbacks to his own actions. Feeling guilt. Something a soulless vampire is supposed to be incapable of.
The trials of the ensoulment aren't important, they're not what mattered which is why we were shown so little of them. It's the choice that mattered.
A choice Angel has never been capable of making.
Then compare post ensoulment. Spike nearly destroys himself in his guilt over what he did to Buffy and others...
When he finally finds himself killing again, he begs Buffy to slay him as not to do it again.
Compare this to Angel who continued killing criminals after he got his soul. And tried to rejoin Darla.
After ensoulment, Spike may have leaned on Buffy for a while, but he understood her free choice and stopped trying untill she showed him mixed signals. Look at First Date, it hurts him, but he's willing to leave her be happy with someone else. It's only because she asks him to stay, that he does.
(something Angel never bothers with, to Angel apparantly Buffy's free will isn't important enough to give her a say in anything he does)
In touched, Spike is willing to leave the house and leave Buffy to her peace. Then when she asks him to stay (again), he's willing to sleep on the couch. She once again says no and asks him to sleep next to her and hold her. It's only then that he lays down next to her.
All of Season seven is overblown with showing how much guilt Spike shows towards what he did to Buffy. I can't see him showing any more restraint than he does.
(he sure showed more genuine guilt that Angel ever did. And I'm not talking over Angel's bouts of self pity. )
Compare this to Angel's behavior in Forever where he can't even stay with Buffy for more than a few minutes out of fear that he'll want to have sex with her.
When I think of what should keep Buffy and Spike apart, I'm not thinking about Spike's actions. I'm thinking about Buffy and how she never coughs up to her friends about her abuse, her rape of Spike, her beating him up, her neglect, her.... About how she angs on to an idealized dreamimage of a relationship she had in the past and refuses herself to love anyone else.
I'm a Buffy fan, up till season five she was the person I admired most. But in season six she's the abuser, the criminal, the wrong doer. Spike had an excuse, Buffy didn't. And she NEVER admitted this to anyone other than a vamp she was gonna stake anyway.
I may forgive Spike for his actions, because he showed guilt over them, I was not all that willing to do the same for Buffy untill she officially admitted her wrongs. CWDP with her admitting was a nice start, but it shouldn't have been the end of it.
But then to ME it's an example of a strong woman to say that a woman is allowed to use a man who loves her for sex. For ME it's ok for a woman like Willow to rape her girlfriend, cause hey it's just a woman right? For ME it's ok for Xander to try and overpower and rape Buffy cause hey, he's a scooby, and if he wants to forget all about it, that's ok.
Look at the gender issues in season six... Try and reverse them, and then see who was the victim,... You'll easily find it was Spike. Not Buffy, no matter how much the writers later on try and make her into one.
anyway, her post can be found at http://www.livejournal.com/users/dlgood/2318.html?view=18702 )
Ah, so you find it a good positive message to show that it's okay for a woman to rape, abuse and destroy a man. Cause hey when a woman does it it's a sign of empowerment?
Nice message to show to young boys and men around the world... if your girlfriend beats you up and abuses you, it's ok, and normal, cause it makes her a strong and empowered woman?
I'm a spuffy, unashamedly so, because unlike Angel, Spike 'chose' his punishment. It's not the soul that's important, it's the fact that he realized he was wrong and went to get his soul out of 'free choice' because he wanted to be 'the kind of man that would never...'
Spike realized he did the one thing he could never forgive himself for and 'chose' to change.
Something Angel nor Xander did after their rapes or in Xander's case, attempted rape(see the Pack)
Remember how in gone Buffy raped Spike, or tried to?
I'm not so much talking about the throwing him to a wall and starting to have sex with him before he could even realize it was her. I'm talking about after he said a clear "NO" and she still continued, despite her greater physical strenght.
And he had to throw her out of his crypt, the sanctity of his own home? Remember how she pouted about how he'd had the guts to throw her out. Not even the slightest realization of what she'd just done. And compare that to Spike's reaction in Seeing Red...
For that alone I'd be willing to forgive him because at least Spike understood what he did wrong and tried to 'change' to become a better person who'd never harm her again.
I believe Joss handled the post-rape situation pretty decently, though the mistake he made was not handling Buffy's past as an abuser. She was never forced to deal with her crimes, never confronted by anyone to how she did wrong.
And yes she did.
You said that rape's about power...
Not in Seeing Red...
Spike's actions weren't premeditated, they weren't to give him power. Hell the entire 'relationship' that Buffy forced them into proved that Buffy held all the cards, all the power.
If the relationship stayed in the dark, that's cause Buffy wanted it so.
You wonder about Buffy's individual wishes to love or not love Spike? What about Spike's individual wishes and desires? Cause those were ignored all through season six and seven.
Rape is a serious situation, and I believe that Spike was capable of it in the past, but so's Angel...
(remember Drusilla, Holtz's wife, the gypsy girl whom Angel had the guts to call stupid (sorry, just watched 'Angel' and still furious with him over that)...)
But unlike Angel, Spike realized what he did was wrong in Seeing Red. Spike started a voluntary change, because once Buffy kicked him back, the humanity in him was strong enough to make him come to his senses and realize what he was doing and stop.
Yes stop. If Buffy was supposedly so weakened at that point, then Spike could have tried again. If that had been Angelus in the room, he would have gone on, no matter how Buffy tried to fight. Spike on the other hand hated himself almost the second he hit the wall and started having flashbacks to his own actions. Feeling guilt. Something a soulless vampire is supposed to be incapable of.
The trials of the ensoulment aren't important, they're not what mattered which is why we were shown so little of them. It's the choice that mattered.
A choice Angel has never been capable of making.
Then compare post ensoulment. Spike nearly destroys himself in his guilt over what he did to Buffy and others...
When he finally finds himself killing again, he begs Buffy to slay him as not to do it again.
Compare this to Angel who continued killing criminals after he got his soul. And tried to rejoin Darla.
After ensoulment, Spike may have leaned on Buffy for a while, but he understood her free choice and stopped trying untill she showed him mixed signals. Look at First Date, it hurts him, but he's willing to leave her be happy with someone else. It's only because she asks him to stay, that he does.
(something Angel never bothers with, to Angel apparantly Buffy's free will isn't important enough to give her a say in anything he does)
In touched, Spike is willing to leave the house and leave Buffy to her peace. Then when she asks him to stay (again), he's willing to sleep on the couch. She once again says no and asks him to sleep next to her and hold her. It's only then that he lays down next to her.
All of Season seven is overblown with showing how much guilt Spike shows towards what he did to Buffy. I can't see him showing any more restraint than he does.
(he sure showed more genuine guilt that Angel ever did. And I'm not talking over Angel's bouts of self pity. )
Compare this to Angel's behavior in Forever where he can't even stay with Buffy for more than a few minutes out of fear that he'll want to have sex with her.
When I think of what should keep Buffy and Spike apart, I'm not thinking about Spike's actions. I'm thinking about Buffy and how she never coughs up to her friends about her abuse, her rape of Spike, her beating him up, her neglect, her.... About how she angs on to an idealized dreamimage of a relationship she had in the past and refuses herself to love anyone else.
I'm a Buffy fan, up till season five she was the person I admired most. But in season six she's the abuser, the criminal, the wrong doer. Spike had an excuse, Buffy didn't. And she NEVER admitted this to anyone other than a vamp she was gonna stake anyway.
I may forgive Spike for his actions, because he showed guilt over them, I was not all that willing to do the same for Buffy untill she officially admitted her wrongs. CWDP with her admitting was a nice start, but it shouldn't have been the end of it.
But then to ME it's an example of a strong woman to say that a woman is allowed to use a man who loves her for sex. For ME it's ok for a woman like Willow to rape her girlfriend, cause hey it's just a woman right? For ME it's ok for Xander to try and overpower and rape Buffy cause hey, he's a scooby, and if he wants to forget all about it, that's ok.
Look at the gender issues in season six... Try and reverse them, and then see who was the victim,... You'll easily find it was Spike. Not Buffy, no matter how much the writers later on try and make her into one.
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no subject
Date: 2003-08-31 12:53 am (UTC)I should note that this doesn't mean I don't like or sympathize with him, or think it makes him rotten. It's just my opinion, and likely fact. And I think it certainly applies equally to Buffy in S6.
In both cases, I think the characters' neediness is such that nobody else can really meet them until they find ways to meet those needs themselves. In Buffy's case, the unconditional support of Tara, Riley and eventually Dawn and Giles in "Grave" helps her finally help herself.
In early S6, Spike's support is unconditional, unlike Willow and Xander whom Buffy perceives as clearly needing her to appear "OK" too much to offer such support.
But Buffy perceives that Spike's support does not remain unconditional after the phsycial relationship commences. He simply doesn't have it in him to offer her unconditional support over a sustained time because he cannot control his own desire and need for her - as foreshadowed by his singing in OMWF.
As he shows, he doesn't have it in him to be supportive and patient with her initial ambivalence and confusion, followed by her later rejections. Perhaps, Buffy's subconsciously trying to sabotage her own recovery - just as Faith did in S3 by hitting on every male that offered to assist her.
Faith eventually began to respond to overtures from Angel and the Mayor, as both withstood her advances and continued to attempt to support her in ways she could percieve as unconditional. Spike, despite his intentions, cannot do this for Buffy in S6 - which IMHO is why Buffy stopped actively seeking support from Spike for dealing with her issues, and thereafter turned more and more toward using him as an escape instead.