Response on Seeing Red that I wish I could have given DLgood

[liliaeth]

(if only the response bit allows more characters in a post
anyway, her post can be found at http://www.livejournal.com/users/dlgood/2318.html?view=18702 )

Ah, so you find it a good positive message to show that it's okay for a woman to rape, abuse and destroy a man. Cause hey when a woman does it it's a sign of empowerment?

Nice message to show to young boys and men around the world... if your girlfriend beats you up and abuses you, it's ok, and normal, cause it makes her a strong and empowered woman?

I'm a spuffy, unashamedly so, because unlike Angel, Spike 'chose' his punishment. It's not the soul that's important, it's the fact that he realized he was wrong and went to get his soul out of 'free choice' because he wanted to be 'the kind of man that would never...'

Spike realized he did the one thing he could never forgive himself for and 'chose' to change.

Something Angel nor Xander did after their rapes or in Xander's case, attempted rape(see the Pack)

Remember how in gone Buffy raped Spike, or tried to?
I'm not so much talking about the throwing him to a wall and starting to have sex with him before he could even realize it was her. I'm talking about after he said a clear "NO" and she still continued, despite her greater physical strenght.

And he had to throw her out of his crypt, the sanctity of his own home? Remember how she pouted about how he'd had the guts to throw her out. Not even the slightest realization of what she'd just done. And compare that to Spike's reaction in Seeing Red...

For that alone I'd be willing to forgive him because at least Spike understood what he did wrong and tried to 'change' to become a better person who'd never harm her again.

I believe Joss handled the post-rape situation pretty decently, though the mistake he made was not handling Buffy's past as an abuser. She was never forced to deal with her crimes, never confronted by anyone to how she did wrong.
And yes she did.

You said that rape's about power...
Not in Seeing Red...
Spike's actions weren't premeditated, they weren't to give him power. Hell the entire 'relationship' that Buffy forced them into proved that Buffy held all the cards, all the power.
If the relationship stayed in the dark, that's cause Buffy wanted it so.

You wonder about Buffy's individual wishes to love or not love Spike? What about Spike's individual wishes and desires? Cause those were ignored all through season six and seven.

Rape is a serious situation, and I believe that Spike was capable of it in the past, but so's Angel...
(remember Drusilla, Holtz's wife, the gypsy girl whom Angel had the guts to call stupid (sorry, just watched 'Angel' and still furious with him over that)...)
But unlike Angel, Spike realized what he did was wrong in Seeing Red. Spike started a voluntary change, because once Buffy kicked him back, the humanity in him was strong enough to make him come to his senses and realize what he was doing and stop.

Yes stop. If Buffy was supposedly so weakened at that point, then Spike could have tried again. If that had been Angelus in the room, he would have gone on, no matter how Buffy tried to fight. Spike on the other hand hated himself almost the second he hit the wall and started having flashbacks to his own actions. Feeling guilt. Something a soulless vampire is supposed to be incapable of.

The trials of the ensoulment aren't important, they're not what mattered which is why we were shown so little of them. It's the choice that mattered.

A choice Angel has never been capable of making.

Then compare post ensoulment. Spike nearly destroys himself in his guilt over what he did to Buffy and others...
When he finally finds himself killing again, he begs Buffy to slay him as not to do it again.
Compare this to Angel who continued killing criminals after he got his soul. And tried to rejoin Darla.

After ensoulment, Spike may have leaned on Buffy for a while, but he understood her free choice and stopped trying untill she showed him mixed signals. Look at First Date, it hurts him, but he's willing to leave her be happy with someone else. It's only because she asks him to stay, that he does.
(something Angel never bothers with, to Angel apparantly Buffy's free will isn't important enough to give her a say in anything he does)

In touched, Spike is willing to leave the house and leave Buffy to her peace. Then when she asks him to stay (again), he's willing to sleep on the couch. She once again says no and asks him to sleep next to her and hold her. It's only then that he lays down next to her.

All of Season seven is overblown with showing how much guilt Spike shows towards what he did to Buffy. I can't see him showing any more restraint than he does.
(he sure showed more genuine guilt that Angel ever did. And I'm not talking over Angel's bouts of self pity. )
Compare this to Angel's behavior in Forever where he can't even stay with Buffy for more than a few minutes out of fear that he'll want to have sex with her.

When I think of what should keep Buffy and Spike apart, I'm not thinking about Spike's actions. I'm thinking about Buffy and how she never coughs up to her friends about her abuse, her rape of Spike, her beating him up, her neglect, her.... About how she angs on to an idealized dreamimage of a relationship she had in the past and refuses herself to love anyone else.

I'm a Buffy fan, up till season five she was the person I admired most. But in season six she's the abuser, the criminal, the wrong doer. Spike had an excuse, Buffy didn't. And she NEVER admitted this to anyone other than a vamp she was gonna stake anyway.

I may forgive Spike for his actions, because he showed guilt over them, I was not all that willing to do the same for Buffy untill she officially admitted her wrongs. CWDP with her admitting was a nice start, but it shouldn't have been the end of it.

But then to ME it's an example of a strong woman to say that a woman is allowed to use a man who loves her for sex. For ME it's ok for a woman like Willow to rape her girlfriend, cause hey it's just a woman right? For ME it's ok for Xander to try and overpower and rape Buffy cause hey, he's a scooby, and if he wants to forget all about it, that's ok.

Look at the gender issues in season six... Try and reverse them, and then see who was the victim,... You'll easily find it was Spike. Not Buffy, no matter how much the writers later on try and make her into one.

Comments

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Ah, so you find it a good positive message to show that it's okay for a woman to rape, abuse and destroy a man. Cause hey when a woman does it it's a sign of empowerment?

Nice message to show to young boys and men around the world... if your girlfriend beats you up and abuses you, it's ok, and normal, cause it makes her a strong and empowered woman?

I've never stated that Spike was not victimized by Buffy - nor have I sought to defend Buffy's mistreatment of Spike or anyone else in her life. That was not even a topic of my discussion. How can I seriously examine and respond your reaction to my essay if you primarily focus on arguments I never make?

Regardless of whether Spike was victimized by Buffy, this does not negate that Buffy was vicitmized by Spike. This is not Zero-Sum; it is quite possible for one or both to be both victim and victimizer. Flipping gender interpretations in no way justifies victimization of another person.

You've argued that Buffy's status as victim in no way absolves her for victimizing Spike, and I agree. But by the same token, Blaming Buffy for her prior bad acts in no way absolves Spike of his own. After all, one must hold Spike to the same standard one holds Buffy. If we claim otherwise, the metaphorical gender reversal fails to hold.

As I've argued, merely feeling bad for and aiming to correct for a singular bad act is insufficient if that bad act is part of a larger pathology. In Spike's case, a pattern of behavior existed prior to the sexual assault, grounded in the individual with humanity that Spike was - not simply in his status as soulless demon. I argue that ME failed artistically with Spike's story in S7, because the writing (and Spike) failed to examine or address the extent of those pathologies that drove his "bad acts".

Again, Whedon's metaphor and the impelementation thereof through story were the primary foci of my argument. Namely, that the execution of Whedon’s story does not achieve the goals he set forth, and on top of that, sends a very dangerous message to the viewers he intends to reach with that message. Sympathize with Spike or not, that is the fundamental issue I'm discussing. And one you consistently fail to recognize or address.

[liliaeth]

Well I don't have much time for a full response to explain right this moment, but I do have one question...
What patterns of behavior?

I see clear patterns of behavior in Buffy towards Spike.
(not to the scoobies, cause to me she should have kicked Willow out in Wrecked and should have stopped Xander's bullying behavior)
I just do not see paterns of behavior connecting Spike to rape.
Hell I see them a lot less for Spike then I do for Angel, who to me does display paterns of rapist behavior.

And the whole emotional hurt...
Sorry, I saw a man with a definite emotional handicap of fully understanding humans do his best to help a woman he loved... And a woman in full clinical depression take advantage of that fact to emotionally destroy the man in question. Since she's unwilling to release her anger on the people really deserving it, namely Xander and Willow. And oh yes, Giles, for abandonning her at the worst possible moment in her life.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

And the whole emotional hurt... Sorry, I saw a man with a definite emotional handicap of fully understanding humans do his best to help a woman he loved...

Really?

In "Smashed", when Spike hits Buffy and tells her she came back wrong - he's trying his best to help Buffy? By making her feel miserable about herself? If he loves her so much, and if he's trying to help her, then why does he take so much pleasure in makeing her feel so bad? Why does he never show any remorse for the suffering this inflicts upon her?

In "Dead Things", when he's working to isolate Buffy from the people she cares about most so that she will be alone with him - he's trying his best to help Buffy?

But hasn't Spike noted early on, that Buffy has lived longer and been more successful than other slayers because she has these friends as ties to the world, and because she has them to support her? And hasn't he seen her at her happiest, when she had good relationships with her friends and family? Didn't he tell ADAM that separating Buffy from her friends would make her weaker? Isn't he also painfully aware, that these friends were the ones that returned her to life when he failed to save her? And certainly, in talking with her in the early parts of Season 6, he's quite aware of how unhappy her alientation from her friends makes her.

So why does he work to continue that alienation, when he knows from experience that it's quite detrimental to her? Did he suddenly get stupid, and forget all of those insights he'd gleaned about Buffy during those first four years he knew her?

If he loves her so much, if he cares so deeply about her well-being, why is he willfully disregarding such an established fact about her character? And something Spike has revealed through Seasons 2-6 as being more aware of than other characters. Isn't it just a tiny bit possible that he's manipulating her, alienating her, and causing her emotional distress - not in a selfless attempt to help her out or through simple wooing, but rather in a selfish attempt to bring her closer to him? That despite the claims that he loves her - alleviating her pain and suffering and making her happy and strong, aren't as important to him as having her depend upon him?

[rahirah]

In "Smashed", when Spike hits Buffy and tells her she came back wrong - he's trying his best to help Buffy?

At that specific point? No. He's hurt and angry as hell that she's rejected as meaningless not just his protestations of love, but his attempts at being a man. He's trying to get a bit of his own back: You call me a thing, but you're a demon too! It's cruel and petty, but so was what Buffy said to him earlier. Both of them are right--Spike is still a monster, albeit a much-changed monster, and Buffy has come back wrong, in a way that has nothing to do with Spike's being able to hit her. And both of them are too angry at that moment to admit that there's more to the other than that.

So why does he work to continue that alienation, when he knows from experience that it's quite detrimental to her? Did he suddenly get stupid, and forget all of those insights he'd gleaned about Buffy during those first four years he knew her?

Not stupid. You'll note that throughout the first seven or eight episodes of the season, Spike was trying a completely different tack. He expresses surprise that Buffy's not part of the group hug in Afterlife. He tells her to go back to her friends in OMWF. And Buffy tells him, consistently, in word and deed, that she doesn't want to. That she'd rather be alone. That being around her friends is painful for her.

What Spike tells Buffy in Dead Things is, in his mind, part dirty/arousing sex talk, part wishful thinking, and part gospel truth. He knows Buffy's changed. He doesn't know exactly how, because Buffy's stopped talking to him. He thinks she'll be happier if she just admits she belongs in the shadows like him. Spike is, of course, wrong. As he later said in NLM, at this point, he doesn't truly understand the self-loathing which is causing Buffy to use him to punish herself. (To be honest, neither do I, and that's one of the key flaws in S6 for me. Why does Buffy hate herself so much? And why does she stop hating herself in Grave? I can guess, but this is an incredibly vital point, and I shouldn't have to guess.) And in any case, incisive character analysis tends to go out the window when the little head is doing the thinking. It's fairly easy to see how Buffy's inadvertantly trained him to act this way by ignoring or denigrating his attempts to be human, and rewarding his lapses into big bad sexy vampire.

In Normal Again, Spike does realize his mistake in analyzing her motives, when he tells her she's in love with the pain. Blunt and angry and God-is-that-the-wrong-time-to-say-this as he is at that moment, he's right. Unfortunately, by this time, both of them are too screwed up to salvage themselves, and things spiral out of control.

Of course Spike wanted Buffy closer to him, and being sans moral compass, he made some terrible mistakes in trying to accomplish this. However, he also loves her and truly wishes her happy, and that's what won out in the end. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Buffy's self-loathing is a curious matter, but not really the subject of my initial post. I have my own ideas, but that's for another day.

It seems to me, what she really needed was what Tara and Riley offered (and later Giles and Dawn in Grave) - a recognition that she was screwed up and behaving in a manner in which she was ashamed of, an understanding that she was still the same Buffy that people loved, capable of being a good person and living in the world, and a willingness to give Buffy the space and support to sort herself out on her own terms without pressuring her. Apparently, it took Buffy several months to come to that understanding about herself.

It's fairly easy to see how Buffy's inadvertantly trained him to act this way

Well yes, if one wishes to view Spike as a life-long tool of behaviorism. I've always been disappointed by the lack of crictical exploration into Spike's willingness to submit to conditioning rather than examining and confronting himself - whether it be Victorian society, Angelus & Dru, the Chip, or his perceptions of what he's supposed to be to please Buffy. He seems, IMHO, all too willing to seek some external source by which to define himself. Why does he always find himself requiring such conditioning?

Of course Spike wanted Buffy closer to him, and being sans moral compass, he made some terrible mistakes in trying to accomplish this. However, he also loves her and truly wishes her happy, and that's what won out in the end. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

I wouldn't disagree, although I think there are also aspects of deep narcissism and immaturity that Spike had to overcome in S7 in order for him to achieve that degree of understanding by the conclusion of the series. IMHO, acquiring the soul was only the first step.

Unfortunately, by this time, both of them are too screwed up to salvage themselves, and things spiral out of control.

I'm confused. Is this a euphemism for the Sexual Assault? It seems to me that Spike merely had to respect Buffy's privacy and continue to give her space to figure herself out. If you're referring to their relationship, given Buffy's mental state and ambivalence throughout the season, I'm not so certain there ever really was a romantic relationship to salvage.

Getting back to the primary point of my original post, my fundamental issue regarded the difference between the story and message Joss Whedon said he intended to put across, and the actual onscreen execution. I've some problems with the concepts behind what S6-7 were supposed to be about, according to ME, but I was open to the story. However, personally, for reasons I expressed in my own LJ, Whedon and ME failed to sell me on it.

[rahirah]

It seems to me, what she really needed was what Tara and Riley offered (and later Giles and Dawn in Grave) - a recognition that she was screwed up and behaving in a manner in which she was ashamed of, an understanding that she was still the same Buffy that people loved, capable of being a good person and living in the world, and a willingness to give Buffy the space and support to sort herself out on her own terms without pressuring her. Apparently, it took Buffy several months to come to that understanding about herself.

True, though neither Tara nor Riley had any idea how deeply wrong Buffy was; she was very careful to keep that from them. She was perfectly willing to lay all the responsibility for the unpleasentness of the relationship on Spike.

I think Spike could have given Buffy that kind of support had she allowed him to do so, but while she might have needed it, she didn't want it.

Well yes, if one wishes to view Spike as a life-long tool of behaviorism.

That's not all that drives him, by any means. But it's a factor.

Why does he always find himself requiring such conditioning?

'Cause that's the way he is? It's hardly an unusual trait to define oneself in terms of others' expectations. In Spike's case he's also got a considerable streak of determination and rebelliousness, and the conflicts and combinations of this with his desire to please those he loves are one of the things that makes the character so fascinating.

I wouldn't disagree, although I think there are also aspects of deep narcissism and immaturity that Spike had to overcome in S7 in order for him to achieve that degree of understanding by the conclusion of the series. IMHO, acquiring the soul was only the first step.

Immaturity, yes. Narcissism? Spike's the opposite of narcissistic. He's intensely other-focused, as you point out. His pathology, if we must define personality traits as pathological, is his tendency to turn himself inside out to prove himself worthy of his current love object. This appears to be rooted in a deep insecurity related to his mother's rejection of him after he turned her, though most likely it's got roots going back to William's childhood that we'll never know about.

However, while Spike tends to love not wisely and too well, I don't think any of the above pop psychology on ME's part invalidates or diminishes the fact that he does love--sometimes selfishly, sometimes selflessly, but always deeply and sincerely.

Unfortunately, by this time, both of them are too screwed up to salvage themselves, and things spiral out of control.

I'm confused. Is this a euphemism for the Sexual Assault?

No, I mean the disintegration of their entire mode of relating to one another over the next several episodes.

In Hell's Bells, Spike thinks Buffy is happy without him; this pleases him. In Normal Again, Buffy is once more unhappy. Spike thinks that her insistence on keeping their relationship a secret is the problem. He pushes her to tell the others, though this will mean he'll be even more isolated from her (Her friends would reject her if they found out? Yeah, right. They'd embrace her and show up on his doorstep with a stake.)

A good idea? No. A deliberate attempt to hurt or control Buffy? Also no. Buffy, on her part, alternates between condescending rejection and confusing spates of possessiveness or jealousy. Both of them are hurt and angry at the other's behavior. Neither are reacting rationally. The bathroom scene is the culmination of a destructive pattern on both sides.

I've some problems with the concepts behind what S6-7 were supposed to be about, according to ME, but I was open to the story. However, personally, for reasons I expressed in my own LJ, Whedon and ME failed to sell me on it.

I have no argument with that, though my dissatisfactions with the story are probably not the same as yours. I have a vast desire to go over the whole thing with a red pencil.

Narcissist Spike?

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

I think Spike could have given Buffy that kind of support had she allowed him to do so, but while she might have needed it, she didn't want it.

Indeed, Spike proved quite early on in their physical relationship that he could not give her that support. When Buffy appears to reject him, or perhaps be confused, rather than give her space to figure herself out he repeatedly pressures her to commit more to the relationship - showing that he's too colored by his own needs to meet her own. (unlike Tara and Riley may have been)

Immaturity, yes. Narcissism? Spike's the opposite of narcissistic. He's intensely other-focused, as you point out.

Believe it or not, narcissism and 'other-focus' are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, it's actually quite comment for the narcissist to fixate or obessess upon a singular love object - the 'other focus' serves to actually limit the Narcissists engagement with the outside world. And I think, very much the case with Spike.

If you check out the Internet Mental Health page on Narcissitic Personality Disorder (http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html), or almost any resource on NPD you'll find that Spike very firmly fits the criteria, particularly considering his grandiose sense of self-importance and fragile self-esteem. He's really quite textbook.

Although his narcissism is more likely a secondary characteristic of Antisocial Personality Disorder.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

showing that he's too colored by his own needs to meet her own

I should note that this doesn't mean I don't like or sympathize with him, or think it makes him rotten. It's just my opinion, and likely fact. And I think it certainly applies equally to Buffy in S6.

In both cases, I think the characters' neediness is such that nobody else can really meet them until they find ways to meet those needs themselves. In Buffy's case, the unconditional support of Tara, Riley and eventually Dawn and Giles in "Grave" helps her finally help herself.

In early S6, Spike's support is unconditional, unlike Willow and Xander whom Buffy perceives as clearly needing her to appear "OK" too much to offer such support.

But Buffy perceives that Spike's support does not remain unconditional after the phsycial relationship commences. He simply doesn't have it in him to offer her unconditional support over a sustained time because he cannot control his own desire and need for her - as foreshadowed by his singing in OMWF.

As he shows, he doesn't have it in him to be supportive and patient with her initial ambivalence and confusion, followed by her later rejections. Perhaps, Buffy's subconsciously trying to sabotage her own recovery - just as Faith did in S3 by hitting on every male that offered to assist her.

Faith eventually began to respond to overtures from Angel and the Mayor, as both withstood her advances and continued to attempt to support her in ways she could percieve as unconditional. Spike, despite his intentions, cannot do this for Buffy in S6 - which IMHO is why Buffy stopped actively seeking support from Spike for dealing with her issues, and thereafter turned more and more toward using him as an escape instead.

Re: Narcissist Spike?

[liliaeth]

If you check out the Internet Mental Health page on Narcissitic Personality Disorder, or almost any resource on NPD you'll find that Spike very firmly fits the criteria, particularly considering his grandiose sense of self-importance and fragile self-esteem. He's really quite textbook.


----->

Sorry, but this is just to ridiculous to take serious...
Are you confusing Angel and Spike?
Spike's not the one who believes he's a champion, or the one with the great destiny... In all accounts, he rarely if ever takes himself serious. Even his boasting about being the Big Bad is just a facade that he hides himself behind.

Hell when Spike talks about himself, he'll call himself just a guy, love's bitch... all demeaning terms, even when he calls himself attractive, it's more a joke than something he seriously believes...

Stop focussing Angel's clear faults on Spike and you might start seeing Spike for who he really is.

Angel is the one obsessed with his own mirror image and importance. The one who thinks he's unmissable. The second he gets a chance to see it in Pylea he can't stop looking at himself. Angel's the one that calls himself the Champion, that sees his life as so big and important... Spike never did. Even after getting the soul.

Re: Narcissist Spike?

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Did you even read the descriptions of NPD before rejecting it out of hand?

Even his boasting about being the Big Bad is just a facade that he hides himself behind.

Textbook. Exaggerating self-importance without commensurate achievement. Maintaining that facade, and quite seriously believing in it, for over a century.

he'll call himself just a guy, love's bitch... all demeaning terms, even when he calls himself attractive, it's more a joke than something he seriously believes...

Naricissim and self-deprecation are by no means mutually exclusive. Woody Allen, anyone? And I think Spike very seriously wants to believe what he says about himself.

Calling himself "Love's Bitch" may seem a demeaning term, but it also indicates a preoccupation with idealized love and an exaggeration of his grandness as the "unrequited lover" of romantic tradition. Spike does not see himself as "just a guy" and has never wanted to.

Stop focussing Angel's clear faults on Spike and you might start seeing Spike for who he really is.

Angel is the one obsessed with his own mirror image and importance.

I don't see why you feel like Angel is so necessary to an analysis of Spike's traits. As if Angel being vain means that Spike cannot also be vain.

The issue was Spike's sense of self-importance.

Because, Spike desperately wants to be more than just convenient. He wants to matter, to be Important, special and grand. It's part of what makes him an interesting and attractive character to look at. The idea that he might really just be regular, average, mediocre, or banal - that he's not as Special and Important as he'd like to believe - is something he's deeply afraid of. And something that he was prone to reacting dramatically and violently about.

Please re-read the descriptions of narcissism. It very much fits. It doesn't make him good or bad - it just makes him a narcissist. If you have trouble accepting that aspect of the character, if you can't see Spike for who he really is (narcissistic tendencies and all) and still like him, that's not my problem.

Re: Narcissist Spike?

[rahirah]

Indeed, Spike proved quite early on in their physical relationship that he could not give her that support. When Buffy appears to reject him, or perhaps be confused, rather than give her space to figure herself out he repeatedly pressures her to commit more to the relationship - showing that he's too colored by his own needs to meet her own. (unlike Tara and Riley may have been)

Mmm. If someone I was madly in love with initiated kissage, I don't think I'd be out of line asking them what their intentions were. And if they initiated it a second time, and then proceeded to unzipping me and going at it, and then to showing up at my house and repeating the process...well, I think it's asking rather a lot to expect perfect, detached rationality of the subject. Of course Spike SHOULD have run very fast in the other direction, because Buffy was far more screwed up than he realized or could cope with...but he didn't realize it at first, and by the time he did, it was too late. Even so, Spike did try to provide Buffy with emotional support on several occasions post-coitus, and Buffy roundly rejected the efforts.

I have my doubts that anyone, with the possible exception of Giles, could have coped with Buffy any better than Spike did, had Buffy unleashed the full extent of her rage and confusion on them. There wouldn't have been the sexual component to complicate things, but there are plenty of other ways for a seriously depressed person to destroy their relationships.

As for the narcissism, I really don't see it. For example, we've seen Spike fantasize, but almost everyone fantasizes to some extent. Is he preoccupied with fantasizing? I really don't think so. And while your mileage obviously varies, I don't think he's got a grandiose sense of his own self-importance at all. Some of the traits listed are impossible to judge, because Spike's not human. For a human, pre-soul Spike empathizes very poorly; for a vampire, he's extraordinarily empathetic.

In general I think it's pointless to try to apply the criteria for a human personality disorder to a supernatural creature with a fundamentally alien mindset; there may be some areas of overlap, but there are always going to be crucial areas where what is terribly wrong for a human is perfectly normal for a vampire, and vice versa.

I would agree Spike's self-esteem's not been the highest for the last three years, but that, I think, is what his story in the latter half of S7 is supposed to be about: him confronting the reasons for this, and working through it. (Whether or not it's done well is another matter.)

Re: Narcissist Spike?

[liliaeth]

Re: Narcissist Spike?
Did you even read the descriptions of NPD before rejecting it out of hand?

----->

Nope I read them before I discarded them since they fit Angel a lot better than they did Spike.




Even his boasting about being the Big Bad is just a facade that he hides himself behind.

Textbook. Exaggerating self-importance without commensurate achievement. Maintaining that facade, and quite seriously believing in it, for over a century.

------>

-Achieving a reputation big enough that the watchers were worried about him for the sake of prooving to Dru that he was at least as evil as Angelus...(The fact that he failed at prooving as more evil than Angelus is hardly his fault.)

-Being able to walk into a powerful vampire's lair and taking it over in less than a week.

-Being able to beat two slayers in less than a century.

Spike has NEVER bragged about anything that he didn't actually achieve. The closest he's ever come to bragging was in his 'first date' with Buffy in 'Fool for love' when he pretended he was more evil and more important in Angelus' gang than he really was. But is one incident really proof of him exaggerating his self importance?

I may be a redemptionista, but I have watched season two and three. Spike was dangerous, he was powerful. That's something the scoobies might have either ignored or forgotten in season four, but he never had to exagerate anything. Other than the fact that he had more human in him than he was ever willing to admit.

And look at season five, six and seven. Spike has every chance to grandize those things that he did to get Buffy's interest. He could go on about doing good things which he knows Buffy might like. Yet he doesn't.
After season six, he mentions his helping the scoobies during the summer, exactly once... to Xander who already knows about it.
He never brags about letting Glory torture him and staying silent, even though he has the right to do so, since it probably saved Dawn's life.
He doesn't brag about sleeping with Buffy. All he insinuates is that he's good and that's more in reaction to Buffy's words than anything else. Look at Dead Things, when not being insulted, he's more interested in telling Buffy how good she is.

He could brag about getting his soul, willingly. Yet he doesn't. He considers it something private and is bothered that Buffy doesn't seem to see it the same way.

Spike may posture a lot, and he may pretend to be more dangerous than he is, but he never makes himself out to be more important than he is.

All he does is try and conform to the image that he thinks the woman he loves wants him to be.
If Dru wants him to be a dangerous, wild and sadistic killer then he strives to become that.
If Buffy wants a good guy to protect her sister, keep her friends safe and watch her back, then he'll be that.
If Buffy wants someone to have sex with, he'll be that as well and conform to what he thinks she wants of him.

Spike never thought of himself as important, if he did, he wouldn't be so willing to change the moment the woman he loves wants him to.

Re: Narcissist Spike?

[liliaeth]

Because, Spike desperately wants to be more than just convenient. He wants to matter, to be Important, special and grand. It's part of what makes him an interesting and attractive character to look at. The idea that he might really just be regular, average, mediocre, or banal - that he's not as Special and Important as he'd like to believe - is something he's deeply afraid of. And something that he was prone to reacting dramatically and violently about.

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Well who doesn't want to matter and to be more than convenient?
The thing is, Spike doesn't just pretend to be something he isn't, he actually tries to achieve it through actions.
Spike and Xander are a lot alike on those counts.
They both want to matter, but neither of them is an alpha male and they know it.

The thing is, both Spike and Xander are much more important and more valuable being what they are than they ever gave themselves credit for. They're both good men and heroes.
And because they don't see themselves as the big heroes, they're willing to let Buffy take the lead without feeling of themselves as less when she's doing so. Unlike Riley, Spike doesn't mind that Buffy's stronger than him, he actually loves her for it.

Spike to me is the every man. The one like us, striving to be something more than he's supposed to be and if that's narcistic, then colour me narcistic.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I think the worse thing about Xander was that he (sometimes) run away from responsibility than take it. However, it wasn't Xander's fault what happened in The Pack. The kid was possessed with a hyena. He couldn't control his actions. Why should he feel ashamed about what the hyena in him had tried to do? It wasn't him. Xander had never raped anyone in the show, he had the chance to take advantage of Buffy in BB&B but he was so much of a gentleman not to take it.