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liliaethI need to calm down and start writing on something, do something useful. (quite possibly get rid of my headache first)
It's not so much the comic even. Really, honestly. I stopped reading it around issue 7 when it was clear that the characters in the comic had nothing to do with the ones on screen and that they focused endlessly on characters who lost all my sympathy at the end of Chosen. And then they went and tried to make me stop loving Buffy as well.
What pisses me off, is that they took two great characters, Buffy and Angel, stripped them of anything that made them interesting. Forced them back together in a relationship that was clearly destined to end in fail from the start. No, not because of the Curse. The curse is actually the thing that keeps them still connected at the moment.
We're talking about two characters who barely know one another, have no connection but the physical, see only fantasies about one another that will become clear if they ever talked to one another for more than an hour. And I mean, talk, not have sex, actual spend some time together.
I've mentioned this before, a couple of times. Yes I'm a record on repeat on this one, but the quite simple fact is that if Buffy and Angel ever truly started a relationship, they'd either break up within the month; kill one another and or never talk to each other ever again. That's the basic reality. The fact that the Curse forces them to stay apart is what allowed Buffy and Angel for that matter, to keep their illusions about one another and it's the only reason Buffy hasn't closed of that relationship for good.
Why? Because Buffy is an alpha and so is Angel. And they both want to be in charge. They both want to be, not just a hero, but 'the hero'.
They're just too alike, it's that simple. the reason I support both spangel and spuffy is because essentially, it's the same relationship with the same basic dynamics. And both of those work, because unlike Buffy and Angel, Spike is so NOT an alpha. Not saying here he's some submissive flower. But he's a people person who needs someone to follow. And both Buffy and Angel need someone like that as a partner. Someone who will argue with them, hold them to account for their stupid moves and make them see themselves in a different light. But who will essentially let them take the lead. (it's also why even though I despise B/A, I can still read B/S/A, because Spike makes the dynamics tollerable)
One of the biggest problems for me with B/A is that Angel still treats Buffy like a little girl. In the comics they've made it even worse, by having him be Twilight and decide on killing her slayers, young girls under her protection for what he claims is a greater cause. And he expects her to just... accept it and assume he knows better because he's Angel.
The real Buffy, after hearing that crap last issue and this one, would have kicked his ass over even thinking like that, then she'd have staked him or tied him up, until she knew what the hell was either controlling him or impersonating him.
Right now the only hope comicverse Buffy has, is that she's under some kind of mind control. Because the real Buffy, she doesn't tolerate that kind of crap.
Honestly, what is it with comic book writers and editors these days? It used to be that comics were about people who were better than the general public reading them. But now... Spider-Man got turned into a slimebag, Buffy into a weak little girl who needs men to make her decisions for her...It's just not right.
But more than that though, what annoys me most is the attitude of certain B/Aers.
Back when I was first getting into Buffy, I was still foolish and young and I figured that B/A was cute. (I was a kid, what can I say and I love things like vampire/Slayer romances.)
But even then, when I first got into fandom, I just got sick of over half the crap on the Bangel yahoo groups. Up to the point that I joined a Buffy/Riley com, just to be able to read some Buffy fics that didn't include bashing. Or at least not nearly as much of it.
I never fell in love with the pairing itself, though I never hated it either, but I loved the people on that group, cause they were nice, positively minded and seemed like fun people to hang out with. (even if I was the quiet lurker type most of the time)
After I actually watched IWRY and I lost all interest in B/A, once Angel showed he couldn't handle even a day as a human without wanting to be the big strong vampire again and then blaming it on 'protecting' Buffy - well there was no way I could ever think of their love as real ever again. Angel lost me the moment he found out where the Mohra demon was and decided to go take it out on his own, despite knowing he was newly human, wasn't used to his lesser strenght yet. And still felt it should be him, rather than Buffy to go take out the demon. Because even as a human, he had to be the big strong 'hero'
After that I started joining different coms, first Spike coms. I still wasn't into spuffy, but I wanted to read Spike fics, since he seemed so interesting from s4 on and I loved him in Becoming so...And it wasn't until Intervention that I actually started shipping Spuffy. And I noticed something. That sure, there was still some bashing, unfortunately, but the spuffy people as a whole, where a lot less vitriol than the Bangel crowd. No I don't think that all B/A-ers are like that. I know plenty of people through slash sites and coms who are nice as hell. But...
It's like the B/A pairing seems to bring out an arrogant, demanding and spiteful side in some people that seems to seek a sick kind of pleasure into forcing their own pathetic gloathing into other people's faces.
Once again, not talking about all Bangel shippers, or even the majority of them. Just the very loud, very vicious part of them that seems to only take enjoyment in bringing other people down.
And yes, that does piss me off.
It's not so much the comic even. Really, honestly. I stopped reading it around issue 7 when it was clear that the characters in the comic had nothing to do with the ones on screen and that they focused endlessly on characters who lost all my sympathy at the end of Chosen. And then they went and tried to make me stop loving Buffy as well.
What pisses me off, is that they took two great characters, Buffy and Angel, stripped them of anything that made them interesting. Forced them back together in a relationship that was clearly destined to end in fail from the start. No, not because of the Curse. The curse is actually the thing that keeps them still connected at the moment.
We're talking about two characters who barely know one another, have no connection but the physical, see only fantasies about one another that will become clear if they ever talked to one another for more than an hour. And I mean, talk, not have sex, actual spend some time together.
I've mentioned this before, a couple of times. Yes I'm a record on repeat on this one, but the quite simple fact is that if Buffy and Angel ever truly started a relationship, they'd either break up within the month; kill one another and or never talk to each other ever again. That's the basic reality. The fact that the Curse forces them to stay apart is what allowed Buffy and Angel for that matter, to keep their illusions about one another and it's the only reason Buffy hasn't closed of that relationship for good.
Why? Because Buffy is an alpha and so is Angel. And they both want to be in charge. They both want to be, not just a hero, but 'the hero'.
They're just too alike, it's that simple. the reason I support both spangel and spuffy is because essentially, it's the same relationship with the same basic dynamics. And both of those work, because unlike Buffy and Angel, Spike is so NOT an alpha. Not saying here he's some submissive flower. But he's a people person who needs someone to follow. And both Buffy and Angel need someone like that as a partner. Someone who will argue with them, hold them to account for their stupid moves and make them see themselves in a different light. But who will essentially let them take the lead. (it's also why even though I despise B/A, I can still read B/S/A, because Spike makes the dynamics tollerable)
One of the biggest problems for me with B/A is that Angel still treats Buffy like a little girl. In the comics they've made it even worse, by having him be Twilight and decide on killing her slayers, young girls under her protection for what he claims is a greater cause. And he expects her to just... accept it and assume he knows better because he's Angel.
The real Buffy, after hearing that crap last issue and this one, would have kicked his ass over even thinking like that, then she'd have staked him or tied him up, until she knew what the hell was either controlling him or impersonating him.
Right now the only hope comicverse Buffy has, is that she's under some kind of mind control. Because the real Buffy, she doesn't tolerate that kind of crap.
Honestly, what is it with comic book writers and editors these days? It used to be that comics were about people who were better than the general public reading them. But now... Spider-Man got turned into a slimebag, Buffy into a weak little girl who needs men to make her decisions for her...It's just not right.
But more than that though, what annoys me most is the attitude of certain B/Aers.
Back when I was first getting into Buffy, I was still foolish and young and I figured that B/A was cute. (I was a kid, what can I say and I love things like vampire/Slayer romances.)
But even then, when I first got into fandom, I just got sick of over half the crap on the Bangel yahoo groups. Up to the point that I joined a Buffy/Riley com, just to be able to read some Buffy fics that didn't include bashing. Or at least not nearly as much of it.
I never fell in love with the pairing itself, though I never hated it either, but I loved the people on that group, cause they were nice, positively minded and seemed like fun people to hang out with. (even if I was the quiet lurker type most of the time)
After I actually watched IWRY and I lost all interest in B/A, once Angel showed he couldn't handle even a day as a human without wanting to be the big strong vampire again and then blaming it on 'protecting' Buffy - well there was no way I could ever think of their love as real ever again. Angel lost me the moment he found out where the Mohra demon was and decided to go take it out on his own, despite knowing he was newly human, wasn't used to his lesser strenght yet. And still felt it should be him, rather than Buffy to go take out the demon. Because even as a human, he had to be the big strong 'hero'
After that I started joining different coms, first Spike coms. I still wasn't into spuffy, but I wanted to read Spike fics, since he seemed so interesting from s4 on and I loved him in Becoming so...And it wasn't until Intervention that I actually started shipping Spuffy. And I noticed something. That sure, there was still some bashing, unfortunately, but the spuffy people as a whole, where a lot less vitriol than the Bangel crowd. No I don't think that all B/A-ers are like that. I know plenty of people through slash sites and coms who are nice as hell. But...
It's like the B/A pairing seems to bring out an arrogant, demanding and spiteful side in some people that seems to seek a sick kind of pleasure into forcing their own pathetic gloathing into other people's faces.
Once again, not talking about all Bangel shippers, or even the majority of them. Just the very loud, very vicious part of them that seems to only take enjoyment in bringing other people down.
And yes, that does piss me off.
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no subject
Date: 2010-04-11 03:34 pm (UTC)Though I agree with you.
I've never read the comics, because I consider anything on screen canon, not anything they shove into comics. So whatever you're actually talking about with B/A in the comics, I have no idea the details.
But like I said, I agree with you. Buffy and Angel, though they are in love, or at least were, are destined never to get together. That's what had made the pairing so appealing, at least to me. Their friendship back in the original Buffy seasons, crossing over into a romantic side, but never a physical (up until That Episode
whose name I can't remember) was great to me.I've never ventured into the fandom for Buffy or Angel since, by the time I knew what a fandom was, Angel ended. Then, really, if I wanted fic I'd wander off into The Pit.
But, anyway. It seems like most of your problem is the comics and the fact that Angel can't accept the fact that Buffy is not 16 anymore. o0 Which, hey, yea.
Or I could be completely insane and cloudy headed since I just rolled out of bed and tried to get philosophical.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-16 07:11 pm (UTC)Thing is, I did ship B/A once upon a time. But for me IWRY ruined any chance for me of seeing them as a workable pairing. I think my main problem with it was that moment where Angel who's human at the time, finds out the location of the Mohra demon and instead of telling Buffy, decides to slip out and go be the male macho hero and take it out himself.
See, I don't mind humans fighting monsters, but, Angel knew he had no experience fighting without superpowers and instead of daring to rely on Buffy and let her be the strong one, he just had to go play hero. He couldn't stand not being the big champion for even one day and felt that he, unpowered human, needed to protect Buffy, the Slayer who's kicked his ass even when he was a vampire.
And then he gave up his humanity, without giving her a say in it, while claiming to do it for her sake... Once that happened, I just couldn't believe in them as a pairing anymore. I say claiming he did it for her sake, cause if he really did it to protect her, he would have gone back to Sunnydale with her, he didn't...And she still ended up dying.
Sorry, I get in rantmode way too easily when I'm sick*g*
no subject
Date: 2010-04-11 04:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-16 07:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-11 09:22 pm (UTC)I agree with you that Spuffangel (Bangike?) works because it's a series of checks and very snarky balances. Now that would have been a storyline worth exploring!
no subject
Date: 2010-04-16 07:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-17 02:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-16 06:27 pm (UTC)"Right now the only hope comicverse Buffy has, is that she's under some kind of mind control. Because the real Buffy, she doesn't tolerate that kind of crap."
I sorta disagree. Real Buffy kinda does tolerate that crap. I admittedly haven't read the comics and don't plan to but it does sound a bit in character for Buffy. This is a woman with a huge blind spot when it comes to romantic/sexual relationships. Sure she'll step up the instant Vengeance having Anya gets bloody but she let Angelus run around all murderous and bitey for God knows how long before she finally worked up the nerve end it. Years later an older presumably more mature Buffy allowed Spike to live despite his killing countless people because he had a sooouuul.
While I agree that Bangel wouldn't have worked out in the end I still don't get why Spuffy is the better alternative. Soul having Spike was obsessed with emotionally damaged Buffy and tried to rape her. That's the basis for a healthy relationship?
From what I've seen both sides of the shipper wars are incredibly vicious. Certain Bangel fans are just being obnoxious because Angel is the Buffy's man. Had spike been in that position you better believe Spuffy fans would have been just as annoying about it (not everyone of course).
I personally prefer it when Buffy, Angel, and Spike keep their naughty bits the hell away from each other otherwise it becomes this big insufferable angst fest.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-16 07:04 pm (UTC)1. Buffy allowed Spike to live, because she knew that he was being mindcontrolled by the first. That he wasn't killing people out of his own free will. Should she have killed Xander as soon as she realized he was being controlled by that hyena spirit? He was just as likely to murder people and tried to rape her. But she still kept herself to knocking him out and locking him up.
Willow murdered Warren and tried to murder the other two nerds and then destroy the world. Should Buffy have slayed her as well? Because what keeps her from trying to do so again?
Same with Anya, Buffy gave her a chance as soon as she was human, despite the fact that in full control of her own choices she murdered hundreds, more likely thousands of people for the flimsiest of reasons. And even after she became a demon again, Buffy gave her a chance, it wasn't until she once again murdered people that Buffy went after her.
Buffy gave Spike a chance, because she saw that he was desperately trying to change, he begged her to kill him and she proved once again, that she is willing to chance on redemption. It's one of her strenghts.
On top of that, Spike wasn't obsessed with emotional damaged Buffy. It's just that s6 emotionally damaged Buffy was the one who initiated sexual contact. Spike much preferred her as a strong woman. In early s6, he tried to be there for her, help her when her friends abandoned her, just threw the bills at her and left her to drown. Now Spike was still soulless at the time, so he didn't have the understanding to say no. He should have, but as a soulless vampire, he didn't get why giving Buffy what she wanted was wrong. So he allowed her to abuse him, beat him up, try to rape him(Gone), and kept hoping for something real.
It's Spike that keeps hoping for an emotional connection and Buffy who keeps kicking it in his face that she's just using him for sex.
When they finally break up, it's because Buffy realizes she's using Spike, that she's tearing him down. It nearly destroys him until the bathroom incident. Buffy's made him so used to the whole no meaning yes thing, since it was a recurring theme of her saying no and then initiating sex, that he didn't instantly realize that this time when Buffy said no, she actually meant it. Especially since Buffy can and has kicked his ass, Spike knows that if she wanted to stop him she could normally do so at any time. The second he realized what he was doing, he was horrified, pulled away and left, and it's the very thing that made him go to Africa and fight to get his soul back in the hope he'd never harm her again.
In s7 though, Spike tries to be strong, is feeling guilty and broken and it's Buffy who pulls him up and gives him the strength to go on until she once again needs him and he stands with her, no matter what.
To me, Spuffy is more interesting, because it's all about choices, free will, redemption. And those happen to be things I find much more interesting to see in a story, rather than some destiny crap.
As for non B/A Buffy pairings. B/R just lacked chemistry to me and B/X well... they're just a million times more interesting as brother and sister than they could ever hope to be in a romantic relationship. For me personally, seeing Buffy and Xander having sex (or just reading about it) would squick me as much as Wincest does in SPN fandom. It's just wrong. the same with Buffy and Giles or Dawn and Spike. Those pairings might not share blood, but they have such a strongly familial themed relationship on the actual show, that I can't even think of seeing them together without being squicked by it. And I really really don't like Willow, so I don't pair her with anyone, unless it's as a background pairing with her canon partners, in the background of a fic.
(cut in two because I apparently went over the word limit)
no subject
Date: 2010-04-17 09:56 pm (UTC)Hey, I'm back and not too lazy to sign in this time.
*Cracks knuckles*
I've been a long time fan of Buffy since I was about ten years old from the 1992 movie to the end of the TV series.
1)Souled Spike started killing people. He was still a vampire. Couldn't throw him in jail. Why didn't Buffy stake him on the spot? I'd argue her intimacy with Spike, sexual and otherwise, granted him a reprieve. It's why she took the wait and investigate route rather than opting to take him out immediately.
2) Buffy didn't kill Anya because the latter became human again and had her soul. As far as we know Anya has never killed anyone while she's been human. So non-demon Anya is not a threat until she kills/harms people. Same applies to chipped!Spike. He killed hundreds if not thousands of people in his pre-chipped days. Buffy elected not to slay spike once he was no longer deemed a physical threat to human beings.
"And even after she became a demon again, Buffy gave her a chance, it wasn't until she once again murdered people that Buffy went after her."
When Anya killed people there was no hesitation on Buffy's part. She pulled out her sword, declared that she was the law, and went after Anya full steam ahead. I love Anya, but I get it. The results of the wish Anya granted killed people and she would have to face the consequences/Buffy. Where I get annoyed is when a similar situation involves someone Buffy has had a close relationship with then it becomes hands off let's wait and see. Prime examples included allowing an unsouled Angelus kill countless people until she was ready and, well, see spike at number 1.
3)Buffy knocked out possessed Xander so he never had the chance to kill anyone so I don't think there really is a point in arguing this. This was also pre-Angelus Buffy so I really don't know how she would have dealt with it.
3) I'm not advocating slaying Willow, but do you really think that if some complete (human) stranger had committed Willow's actions Buffy and co would have been all woo woo woo rehab for you? By that logic Amy's mom should also have been sent to some Wiccan retreat and seen a shrink for Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
"She is willing to chance on redemption. It's one of her strenghts."
4) Redemption...second chances...for people Buffy likes. Best case example Faith. Buffy wasn't to keen on believing Faith was genuinely sorry for crimes even as she confessed to the police and subsequently tossed into prison.
Believe it or not my point isn't that Buffy is a terrible person. Going back to your original post you said that Buffy would never act a particular way in her comic book relationship with Angel. I say that given the slop they handed us for seasons 6 and 7 I can see it. It's there and it saddens me because I loved Buffy from Seasons 1-5.
I don't really feel qualified to discuss Spuffy with you because anything I would say would be overwhelmingly negative. For me it's about quality and the final two season especially Spuffy were made of such fail for me. I wish it was handled differently.
I loved evil spike, accepted chipped spike, and even liked the thought of spuffy when they floated the idea around in season four. The crappily written reality of Spuffy in all of it's destructive sado-masochistic glory just killed it for me. Are there excellent Spuffy fanfics out there that would put the show's fare to shame definitely but to this day I still can't stomach Spuffy. I might have been traumatized, lol.
I do lean slightly Bangel but that's just because there was a better story and writing there.I only started to really like/enjoy the character of Angel when they shipped him off to his own show.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-17 10:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-16 07:04 pm (UTC)And for the record, most, if not all spuffy fans I know, would be just as sickened if the comic had used the B/S pairing for it's badly written porn. To see Buffy under the influence of glowhypnol, with the universe making her have sex regardless of her own free will, regardless of how much she might be struggling it on the inside, it sickens me.
And to see Angel turned into the kind of monster who would take part in organizing the murder of over 200 teenage girls and excuse himself by saying: "They were going to die anyway"... that's just wrong, way wrong.
I can't even begin to imagine the horror I'd feel if they'd done that to Spike, it would ruin everything the character stands for.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-17 09:59 pm (UTC)