Supernatural 516
Apr. 2nd, 2010 08:12 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
liliaethI know, I'm being a Pollyanna again, but am I the only person who is still trying to see the best in Sam?
I've read several reviews now and none of them seem to see what I saw, which is Zachariah messing with Dean's head. Is it really a coincidence that of all Sam's happy memories we got to see, that all of them where about leaving his family? Seriously?
Are people forgetting that it's made clear several times over that in heaven Zachariah could pretty much change their perceptions, let them see whatever memories he wants them to see.
Sure there's the scene with the physical torture,but come on, that's just a distraction. The real torture he was putting Dean through, was the memories of Sam that he allowed Dean to see, handpicking those particular happy moments of Sam's life that didn't involve Sam's family.
And then he rams it in with a hammer in the scene with Mary, as if he's shouting at Dean: "see you should just stop loving Sam and stop trusting in him, cause all he wants to do, all anyone wants to do, is leave you!"
I'm not a Sam girl, Dean's my fave and always has been, so I'm not just saying this because I want to see the best in Sam. But still, this seemed kinda obvious to me.
And wasn't little Sammy cute as always?
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Date: 2010-04-02 06:20 am (UTC)I even wonder if Ash and Pamela were really them or if it was like Mary? I mean we have proof that Zachariah can control things right there and the whole "give Michael a chance" bit on Pamela's part? It didn't sound right for me.
I don't think you're being a Pollyanna. I, like you, am a total Dean!girl but I think your point was rather obvious.
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Date: 2010-04-02 06:38 am (UTC)Added to the way that Pam mostly focused on Dean and barely paid attention to Sam... I really seriously doubt that was the real Pamela. Or at the very least, that she was entirely in control of what she was saying.
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Date: 2010-04-02 12:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 12:59 pm (UTC)us pollyannas gotta stick together.
Date: 2010-04-02 06:32 am (UTC)i still believe in the goodness of Sam. he's trying to find redemption...aren't we all?
and yes, i have also noticed that even in the real world, DEAN is the one being directly attacked by the angels AND demons... which could end up badly for Sam indirectly.
and Zachariah is a Manipulative, PETTY bastard- so he's going to do anything and everything to get Dean to say yes to Michael. And i suppose he wants Sam to say yes to Lucifer so they could play out the final battle.
and, dude, lil' Sammy was soo freaking adorable!!!!!
Re: us pollyannas gotta stick together.
Date: 2010-04-02 06:39 am (UTC)Re: us pollyannas gotta stick together.
Date: 2010-04-02 06:45 am (UTC)he's becoming a pretty bad antagonist ( or good antagonist, since he's doing his job of driving the boys insane...)
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Date: 2010-04-02 07:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 08:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 08:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 12:04 pm (UTC)Dean was in the wrong last night not Sam and I come to realize what Dean is .
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Date: 2010-04-02 05:06 pm (UTC)Dean wasn't entirely in the wrong, but Zachariah was showing them the memories he did to get a specific response, which is for Dean to feel betrayed, which he understandably did.
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Date: 2010-04-02 12:20 pm (UTC)You're absolutely right. It's entirely likely that Zachariah was messing with them the whole time. But even if he was, the way Dean was behaving made no sense. When they went into Dean's memory about Mary, Dean was basically "Sucks to be you, this is MY memory", and he didn't want to leave. I don't blame him for not wanting to leave, but he certainly didn't care that a.) His memory didn't involve Sam and b.) That his memory was hurting Sam. When they went to Sam's memories, I can understand that Dean would be hurt, I really can. But why he didn't look at them and see them as what they were, which is sad, I don't know. If Dean's willing to believe that those are happy memories for Sam, and they involve running away and squatting in what looked like an abandoned trailer, and being kicked out of his own family by his father for wanting to go to school, that is horribly sad. Sam has no memories of a normal home, or a loving mother. Dean got almost five years of that. Sam got nothing. And where was Jessica? I would have thought that at least one of Sam's memories would have included her.
But all Dean saw, and cared about, was that he wasn't in those memories, therefore Sam is an ungrateful jerk who hates his family. That seems self centered to me. Very self centered. And then the bit at the end where he threw the amulet away, knowing Sam was watching, that was just hateful. I went from "Oh Dean" during the first half of the episode to putting him on my shit list by the end. I'm so sick of them manufacturing angst between the brothers.
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Date: 2010-04-02 05:08 pm (UTC)In and of themselves, none of those memories are bad. But put together as they were, and I'm sure, handpicked by Zachariah as they were, they supported Zach's point that Sam just wanted to leave Dean.
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Date: 2010-04-02 12:26 pm (UTC)But I sort of felt the whole time that the heaven thing was just bogus, like they weren't really dead, it was just one big mind f*ck. I mean there's Pam, Mary... the only one I believed being in heaven like that was Ash. And I was pretty excited to see him! (Although if he's tracking all these people, wouldn't he know about Ellen and Jo?)
Anyway, I'm pretty sure this was someone just messing with Dean, maybe even Michael because he has an interest in getting him to say yes too.
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Date: 2010-04-02 05:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 02:32 pm (UTC)Most of my friends are Dean girls, as am I, and while my heart broke for Dean, utterly shattered for him, I could not. NOT, feel the same, intense level of anger toward Sam that all my friends seem to have adopted.
I too felt that, while the memories were real, they were hand-picked by Zachariah, aimed at breaking the boys up. Zach knows, as it's in the Bible (Matthew, I think) 'A house divided against itself will surely fall' and the boys ARE one another's weakness. HE DID THIS ON PURPOSE! He drove it home with memory-Mary making sure Dean got the point that they all leave him, just as Sammy did. Ugh. I just broke apart.
I don't fault Dean for feeling the feelings he felt either. For the anger. For the disappointment- he was very emotionally vulnerable going into this situation to begin with, and Zach added the wind necessary to topple his house of cards. The bastard.
Maybe it would've been better if Sam had been all 'Oh Dean, I am so sorry for what I put you through, I really am' and maybe I harbor just a little pithiness against him for not reaching out to Dean, letting him know he was sorry, but you know, it's a show. This was the catalyst to move the boys apart again.
Dean's sinking, but Sam's remaining firm, I've noticed that too. I think that Dean will say yes to Michael before Sam has a chance to say yes to Lucifer, and in truth, I'm beginning to doubt that Sam will EVER say yes to Lucifer. Hmm...
Anywho, my heart's in pieces for both boys, and like Castiel cursed God (ugh.. that was a killer moment too) by the end of the show I was cursing Kripke (only because that ep was sheer genius). I think Sam will have dug that medallion out of the trash and by the end of the finale, he'll give it back to Dean.
God that was such a hard ep to watch. *sniffle* And it kills me further to see our Dean!camps and Sam!camps divided. Much as I'm a Dean girl, what makes Dean DEAN is his relationship with Sam. I can't separate the two in my head. They are conjoined twins in my heart.
OH! But that kiss with Pamela (licks tv screen) GODDAMN! HOT! (and that conversation with Pamela.. hmm.. I think that was all Zachariah's doing too, as well as Ash's appearance. Zach allowed it. All of it.
Any who.. after last night:
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Date: 2010-04-02 02:48 pm (UTC)"Maybe it would've been better if Sam had been all 'Oh Dean, I am so sorry for what I put you through, I really am' and maybe I harbor just a little pithiness against him for not reaching out to Dean, letting him know he was sorry, but you know, it's a show."
I think Sam did apologize, if I remember correctly, but I could only bring myself to sit through this one once so I'm probably wrong. Sam might have been more likely to make a big apology though, if he hadn't had his head taken off repeatedly in Sympathy for the Devil, and if Dean hadn't told him that there was nothing he could do to make things right between them. I don't think it's terribly surprising that he couldn't muster the effort this time. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have tried, just that I don't really blame him for not doing it. Another thing that is being ignored is that for all his preaching to Sam about family, the only memory of Dean's that Sam saw had everything to do with their mother and nothing to do with him, so maybe he wasn't really feeling the brotherly love either.
And if I were Sam, I don't know that I would give the amulet back after what Dean did with it. That was cruel. Sam is a bigger person than I am, I think (physically he certainly is, but emotionally as well) so I won't be surprised if he does in fact give it back. I just want them to be brothers again, and for them to quit falling for Zachariah's crap. I'm a Sam girl, obviously (and I've probably just rendered my opinion null and void by admitting that) but like you, I like them best together, because they're a part of each other. Sam isn't Sam without Dean, and I'm so tired of the show forcing the brothers apart.
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Date: 2010-04-02 03:31 pm (UTC)It's sad that it's come to this, really. I think that in truth Dean wanted God to fix all this. For him to reach out to Him is huge, then to have it shoved back in his face...
The amulet was a link to God, and by it's association, to Sam. We don't know what was in Dean's head when he tossed it away.
Arguably, Sam girls (sorry, but declarations seem to be required these days) can argue that it symbolizes Dean's discarding his love for Sam. Conversely, Cas giving it back to Dean because it represents God, and on the heels of what Joshua (which means God is salvation- ironic eh?) told them, I think to Dean maybe it was just that last link to any kind of religious faith being torched, therefore tossing it, though I'm sure all the crap handed him in Heaven- well, I would imagine Heaven and Hell look pretty much the same to him at this point.
So, thinking more on it, I'm not all together sure Dean meant it as a slam to Sam, though it did symbolize that departure. Moreover, I think it was as representative of Dean discarding any faith, what little he had, it's trashed.
Otherwise, from what I've seen of previews for next week, if Dean really felt that way about Sam, I would imagine that was enough to make them separate. Again. And from what I've seen they're still working together, physically.
Anywho, I hadn't thought about what happened in Sympathy for the Devil. Very good point there. Though I'm not one to let someone go without a fight unless I plan to walk away from them permanently. I'll tell them as much as I can, as often as I can, over and over until I'm blue in the face how I feel. But maybe that's just me being a girl and all. *shrug*
It was just sad last night. Completely and utterly sad. And just when I thought show couldn't get us any lower...
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Date: 2010-04-02 03:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 05:18 pm (UTC)Oh definitely not, sorry if I ever gave that idea. My main point is that I saw a lot of people on my friendslist angry at Sam and I just didn't understand it.
Another thing that is being ignored is that for all his preaching to Sam about family, the only memory of Dean's that Sam saw had everything to do with their mother and nothing to do with him, so maybe he wasn't really feeling the brotherly love either.
Thing is, Dean's problem wasn't that he wasn't in Sam's memories. It was that every single one of Sam's memories that he saw, were about Sam leaving his family. About getting away from them. It's one of the main reasons I'm so convinced that Zachariah was manipulating just which of Sam's memories that Dean got to see. Just like he used Dean's memory of his mother to drive down his point to Dean, that everyone ended up leaving him.
And it showed that Dean was driven to the point of no longer trusting Sam, that Zachariah had succeeded in that Dean lost faith in Sam's love for him and threw away the amulet.
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Date: 2010-04-04 09:08 pm (UTC)I can't remember if he outright apologised (although like you, I really don't think he had anything to apologise for), but he was very uncomfortable and trying to move Dean on from the Stanford memory once he realised how it was hurting Dean. Really for all the complaints on Sam not thinking of Dean in his heavenly memories (which he had no control over!) I thought Dean came off as failing to see Sam's perspective just as much, if not more so. Instead of listening to what Sam was saying about what made those memories good for him, it was all about how they affected Dean, and Sam needing to justify himself
Another thing that is being ignored is that for all his preaching to Sam about family, the only memory of Dean's that Sam saw had everything to do with their mother and nothing to do with him, so maybe he wasn't really feeling the brotherly love either.
I thought it was interesting that both brothers had happy memories which excluded their father. Dean had a happy memory with Sam where Sam is happy that their father isn't around to spoil things for them. And then a memory with his mother where she's tearful on the phone over John leaving. So both of Dean's memories also explicitly featured a rejection of their father's role in their lifes, and relief that he wasn't around. It wasn't like either brother had a huge variety of memories shown with them being together, so I found it hard to emphasise with Dean being as upset with Sam as he was. He must know that Sam would have other good memories with Jessia and with Dean himself, he only got a glimpe of THREE of Sam's memories among what must be hundreds, and I definitely think that was the angels manipulating the situation.
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Date: 2010-04-04 09:53 pm (UTC)If those happy memories had been things like, time Sam spent with Jessica or Sam being happy at college, Dean wouldn't have been upset. Yet instead all three moments were specifically about getting away from his family.
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Date: 2010-04-02 05:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-04 09:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-04 09:56 pm (UTC)Even, and possibly even especially, when they end up hurting one another.
Sam made mistakes, but he had all the best of intentions. Just like Dean's made mistakes for the best of reasons.
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Date: 2010-04-02 03:15 pm (UTC)Sam had escape. Freedom, not from his family but from the fear and oppression of his life at "home".
That kind of home life doesn't make you love your family less, and I know what I'm talking about. But it does make you crave freedom from the conflicts inherent in that life.
Sam... Sam had a dog. For two weeks.
That killed me dead, right there.
I feel bad for Dean, for Castiel... the aggressiveness of Zachariah's pursuit is horrifying. But do I feel Sam was hurt any less? No.
No apologies for Sam. To those who are petty enough to fault him for his life, his struggle, to call him selfish for wanting freedom, there is no defense. Which is fine.
Was I the only one who woke up today and thought... April Fools?
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Date: 2010-04-02 05:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 06:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 03:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 05:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 04:25 pm (UTC)He's a kid who longed for freedom and "normal" as soon as he understood what those concepts meant. So, of course he's going to think about his first true Thanksgiving and/or the wonderful adventure he'd had when he ran away (because it seems like nothing bad happened to him when he took off). He had no control over what memories come to life. And when he realizes they're getting ready to experience his leaving for Stanford, he tries to spare Dean. He's not intentionally being cruel. He's done nothing wrong. He just wanted different things. And how tragic is it that all it took to make Sam happy was an awkward Thanksgiving dinner and a lousy trailer in the middle of nowhere with a golden retriever as his only friend?
It seems to me that because of how he's been wounded over time, Dean can't see past his perceived rejection by Sam. What he doesn't realize is Sam has never rejected him. We only saw a handful of "happy" memories. What about Jess? We never see Sam think of her, but you know she brought him joy. If the boys had stayed around Heaven long enough, we (and Dean) would have seen moments from Sam's life that included Dean. I have faith in that. Sadly, after all he's been through, Dean doesn't right now.
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Date: 2010-04-02 05:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 05:16 pm (UTC)If the memories were manipulated, in some ways, that let's the guys off the hook. The amulet would never have ended up in the trash if Dean had seen a moment or two of him bringing Sam happiness (as seen from Sam's perspective).
Dean needs to realize that it's okay for Sam to find joy in things that aren't directly tied to Dean. He needs to be able to love that Sam as well as the one who worshiped him as a child.
Now if only we could get the guy's self-esteem up a notch or two so that can happen. :-)
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Date: 2010-04-02 04:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 05:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 06:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 07:35 pm (UTC)Little Sammy was just adorable! Colin Ford is so awesome in the role :D
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Date: 2010-04-03 12:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-07 05:16 pm (UTC)I thought it was just a sibling thing.
When parents aren't around much and you have siblings with an age difference, the older ones are often taken for granted.
I remember joking about our childhood with my brothers(6 and 10 years younger)once and suddenly they went all serious and said;
"We never knew how big you are in our lives until we grew up."
They say that "being around from the beginning" and "always being there(when the parents are not)" tend to lead to taking the older for granted.
Even Sam in season 1 seemed to be rediscovering Dean, so I thought it was just the psychology of the younger sibling. I'm pretty sure Sam's adult memories consist mostly of Dean.
I must say the uproar has surprised me. I mean, I understand a bit of negativity but it seems there are a lot more than I expected.
Excuse my long babble. I'm just glad you posted a good point.
And little Sammy was indeed cute.