Charbashing

[liliaeth]

Don't mind me, I'm in a pissy mood. Don't even know why, should be happy.
(other than that I forgot all about the date for the open day for Seasonal spuffy, but that's just me being way way too busy)

But one of my petpeeves is starting to play up in fics and I hate it.




I'm not the hugest Angel fan, I can give you a rant on all he did wrong, but that's beside the point. See I don't hate Angel, I might not really really like him, but I don't hate hate him.

Yet lately I've seen more and more spuffy fics write it in a way that they used to only write Riley. Which by the way, wasn't any better, cause most of the time Riley didn't deserve all the spite and hatred either.

But the point is...
it's like I'm reading this fic, everything's going great and all of a sudden Buffy's treating Angel like he's this big bad jerk and the fic has everyone treating him like he's nothing but an idiot who's never done anything right in his life and all he's ever done was for selfish reasons and...

And it's not Angel.

Angel was a jerk, and he did have many moments of being childish and an idiot, but essentially he did a lot of selfless good things for selfless good reasons. I won't call him a good man all the time, but he was a bad man who tried to become better and who loved Buffy.

And now there's all those fics that treat Angel, like a lot of B/A fics treat Spike and it's... I just expect better from spuffy shippers. I expect us to be more mature, more grown up and to treat Angel with more respect.
Is that childish from me?

Buffy once loved Angel, part of her always will. And to have her just discard him like he never really mattered it makes me hurt, it stings, because of how horrible it makes Buffy look.

And worst is when those fics that I stop reading as soon as they descend into bashing, are ususally the ones that get lots of feedback. Because they probably serve a need.
But to me, it doesn't help me feel better for Spike, if Angel is treated the way Spike often was in canon. Because I see Spike as being better than that, because I see Buffy as being better than that and because I just plain out expect better from spuffy writers.

This is probably the time to start on how every ship seems to do that isn't it? Spangel and spander insults Buffy and/or Anya, Bangel insults Spike and Riley, ... but does that make it better? Is 'because every ship does it' really a good excuse?

When I see a fic bashing the old love interest it just ... stings. Because with every line of it, I see someone writing a fic where Spike's treated the same way. And if I want better than that for Spike, shouldn't I want better than that for Angel and Dru and ... any other previous love interest as well?

I was making that Riley manip yesterday and I was starting to think about my preconceptions about Riley. About how he's treated in fic and much as I have no great love for Riley, it got me thinking. Riley wasn't a monster. Yes he did wrong, he had no real idea about demons. But that doesn't make him the monster he was often depicted as in fics. And neither is Kenedy. Yes she's brash and annoying and not Tara, but she wasn't a monster. She doesn't deserve all the bashing she gets in fics.

Does it really make your heroes look better if they're all insulting about those other characters? About characters that they once canonically loved or at least cared about?

I just don't feel it does. I just feel that the characters I love and care about are better than that.

I don't like Willow, can't stand her to be honest. But when I write a fic, then Buffy will love her like a sister. And she'll be the love of Tara's life. Not because I think she deserves it, but because that's how the characters on the show feel about her.
(admittedly, I usually just keep her out of my fics, mostly because I know how I feel about her and I'd hate falling into bashing, but honestly, I rather see a char only mentioned in passing (cause not mentioning at all can be bad too) rather than to see them appear just to have them bashed)

It's not that you can't make chars you don't like bad guys. But keep them in character while making them bad guys. Riley can be deep and dark, but he cared for Buffy and if in your fic he didn't, show why this is and have it fit with canon. But most of all, don't turn Buffy into a user while you're at it.

If, like I've done before, you make Angel a monster, give him a reason for being a monster and make me believe it. But don't just say he's always been evil, because he did care and love and do good.

Make me believe the characters in your fic and for gods sake, Please don't bash.

Am I being silly?

Comments

[shapinglight]

You're not being silly at all. This is an inspired rant and you're right. I do expect Spuffy 'shippers to behave better simply because as a group we (I count myself as a partial/former Spuffy) have been the most bashed by other fan groups. We know from that how much it hurts to see the character we love abused and us and our fellow 'shippers called names and told we're not even fit to bring up our own children. Etc, etc.

It's possibly known in the fandom that I have a bit of a downer on extreme B/A and B/X 'shippers for the reason that they were the ones I saw doling out that kind of treatment to Spuffies while the shows were on air, but when I talk about the characters/relationships I talk as I see them, not to bash.

I have to do the Darker Spike recs post today. Can I rec this post?

[liliaeth]

Sure you can rec it.

And it's that exactly. It's because spuffy shippers are like the easy target of Buffy fandom, that I just expect us to be better and not bash.

Maybe it's that part of my losing interest in B/A even before I started shipping B/S was all the Riley bashing. I actually joined a Riley/Buffy group because nine out of ten B/A fics were bashing Riley. And I hated it then.

To see Spuffy shippers start heading more and more in the same way, only with the bashing of Angel, it gets annoying.

It's getting so bad that I can't read half the fics posted on http://www.the-crypt.net and those are supposed to be the handpicked good fics out there..

(and here I go off ranting again)

[shapinglight]

That's not a site I'm familiar with. Bit out of the Spuffy loop really.

[gillo]

Excellent rant - and spot-on in my opinion. Angel was Buffy's first love and that is something precious. The thing about first loves is that usually you grow out of them, and later relationships are more complex and satisfying - but that first one is enshrined, almost, as something holy.

Bangel doesn't work long-term for me because she was still a child in so many ways - and he has moved on too, however much he attempts to deny it to himself. But there's no value to be gained from bashing the character or the ship.

[liliaeth]

Exactly, it's quite the contrary, if you have to bring down the other side to make your own look better, then what does that say about your own favorite?

I feel personally that Spike can stand up against Angel in all his gloriously messed up heroic multifaceted ways. And I much prefer people writing the true Spike, Buffy and Angel and Buffy still choosing Spike. Then to see her pick some saintified version of Spike over idiot!Angel.

(apologizing here if that doesn't make any sense*g*)

nods

[athenewolfe.livejournal.com]

I so agree!

Re: nods

[liliaeth]

:-)

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

Good rant.

As a A/S shipper, I have often felt Spuffies tend to do Angel (and Dru, for that matter) down, in fact I found it a wonderful relief when I first found a fic where Angel got his props. Then the Angel bashing seemed to die down a bit and the Spuffy that I read (always a limited sample, mind) seemed to be a bit more balanced for a while. It would be such a shame if the bias was coming back.

All that said, with a huge and complexly interrelated cast such as the Jossverse had it is very difficult, probably impossible, to give equal fairness to everyone. You need villains, and the ex is a convenient shorthand villain. If you don't bash Dru then you probably end up rewritting Crush. It's not surprising people get it wrong.

[liliaeth]

lol, don't know about early spuffy, just know that by the time I got into the pairing, aka around s5, most spuffy fics were more balanced. Sure you had the occasional bashing fic, mostly of Riley, but most fics seemed to be free of bashing.
Only lately the bashing seems to be creeping back in and it's annoying as hell. There's two fics on the crypt that I totally stopped reading, because both of them have huge scene after scene where Angel is denigrated, pulled down and every action he's ever taken is seen through the worst tint possible.

I guess if I want to read about people's opinions on the chars, I read essays, but if I read fics then I want to read about how the characters feel and think about things, not hear the author ranting at me through the characters mouths.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

I love Angel. I really do. I don't find him attractive, but there's is something about the character that always has me rooting for him (except when it comes to Buffy's love of course).

I was really disturbed when I posted the last chapter of Becoming Spike. Whistler appeared and started making fun of Angel, as he always did in the show, and I got more feedback on that one chapter than I did on any of the others with many people CONGRATULATING me on the quality of my Angel bashing!

It was *so* not my intent and those people will probably be really disappointed in the future.

That said. I think a huge percentage of Spuffy commenters are very young. It's ther only explanation I have when I see poorly written fics garner dozens of comments per chapter while well written and characterized fics go almost unnoticed.

[liliaeth]

Oh I know that feeling.
See it's not having one char insult the other that's the problem, esp. if that char's canonically that way. It's the way that that insulting is seen as the pure and absolute truth and every good the char has ever done is painted in the worst light ever, all through the fic.

You're probably right, new fans, lots of young fans coming into fandom... still annoying though.

[megan-peta.livejournal.com]

Just on something completely off point, I have never watched Angel itself (except a few eps toward the end of season 4 and some of 5) but these icons that have him and Wes occasionally dancing are just a riot. I have really got to go and watch, and not only because there will never be a sequel to TofJ if I don't. Oh, and the review thing boggles my mind, and Lillieth, I'm not the most objective person and I've only written Angel a few times, but I seriously hope I don't attack him like that. I don't think I do, but my memory isn't so good. I'm my own worst...something or other...when it comes to remembering my own plots. *crawls back into little black hole*

[just-sue.livejournal.com]

I so love hearing your views. I'm afraid I have read several fics lately (and dropped, in some cases) which have made me pinch myself to make sure I was awake and not imagining things. And I have to say that it isn't even just other character bashing which is getting to be rife amongst so-called Spuffy supporters.

I will confess to taking pleasure in fics where - am going with Angel, but it could be almost any of the characters (except Tara, 'cos I would be very hard pressed to find anything nasty about her) - a comeuppance has been deservedly delivered. But if the story is that forced or badly presented that you, as a reader, cannot find justification...

There are several stories out there where I have been horrified at the treatment of Spike...and believe me, I can read Spike being tormented quite well. As long as it is part of a story with a purpose.

I do not want to see him being repeatedly abused when it seems to have no purpose other than titillating readers. This is because I actually care about him too much. If Spike is gonna get hurt they'd better be a damn good reason for it - and I certainly don't want my face shoved in it every other para.

From personal experience on one of the archives, readers are just as prone to be annoyed if you don't bash Buffy in some way. She was no angel (no pun intended!) but she doesn't deserved to be pilloried. And they're on a Spuffy archive so you'd sorta assume they liked the Spuffy pairing.

And I have gone on far too long! Fantastic post and maybe you might wanna think about bunging up on spuffy_haven? *hugs*

[liliaeth]

Hmm, I'm rather guilty of hurting Spike in my fics*g*
But he looks so pretty when he's hurting.

I do have to say that there's a lot of fics where both Spike and Buffy are so ooc that they might as well get a new name and become full out oc's.

Hell, I've once read a fic where Buffy was insulted for 'reacting' to the attempted rape in Seeing Red and not seeing it as all her fault.

I mean, come on...

I love Spike, but how often I've read fics set in s5 that treat Buffy as a bitch for not instantly falling in love with Spike the moment he started showing an interest in her...

(how much do we think we'd need to bribe the lj team into finally adding a comment editing function*grumble*)

[liliaeth]

(and you'd think that when I correct a comment, that the corrected version would be faultless... Comment editing please gods of lj, we need it too much*g*)

[just-sue.livejournal.com]

Editing function would be cool! *grins*

[ladyoneill.livejournal.com]

(This goes off from some of the comments)

I think the issue isn't early writers versus later writers but juvenile writers versus mature, and I'm not talking age here. I've read works by 16 year olds that outrock those of people writing for a dozen years.

It's a mental attitude of respect for the characters and their relationships. It's exploring those qualities and building on them. Bashing is childish.

Buffy would not be the character she is without having loved Angel and been loved by him. But then a lot of writers don't really care about characterization either.

This is why I stick to reading my FL--all damn good writers. :)

[liliaeth]

I know the feeling, but I just like giving people a chance*g*

[rudemuchness.livejournal.com]

Amen! I was reading and finding that I feel the same way. It's a really ugly side of fandom, and it ruins it, quite honestly.

[liliaeth]

It just gets annoying when you see it in fandom after fandom. As if people feel that can't be a fan of one char, without insulting another.

[treadingthedark.livejournal.com]

I think I have read the Angel bashing fics that you are talking about and I have to say I don't really take offense. I notice it certainly but if the story is well-written, it doesn't really affect my enjoyment.

I like Angel. I mostly read Spangel, but I enjoy the Spuffy and the occasional Spike/OC as well.

I just view the Angel bashing fics as a form of Alternate Universe which I enjoy immensely as well. Sometimes the writer just needs a villain and rather than bringing in an original character they just use Angel, Riley, Willow, Xander, Giles, Lindsey, Buffy, you name it, I've read it.

Admittedly if they bashed Spike I would just stop reading. Spike is where my loyalty lies.

I seem able to enjoy each story for what it has and the bashing doesn't change the way I see the character when I am finished with that particular story. I know it is only in this story, probably not the story I will be reading in the next five minutes, and am able to keep that separate.

Now I'm not a writer at all so I'm just writing about my perceptions as a reader.

I enjoy fics that follow canon and keep everyone in character,

I also enjoy fics where, for example, Angel is an assassin and Spike is a prostitute and they both are completely alive in Japan. (Incasink)

As long as a story is well written and features a recognizable Spike I guess I am a total Spike fiction slut!

[liliaeth]

See, it's not that they make Angel the villain, I've done that myself and I've read several great fics that did so succesfully.
What I have a problem with mostly, is fic that doesn't just use Angel as a villain, but that basically is the author preaching at the reader "see what a moronic selfish idiot Angel is"

They take every action Angel ever did and put a selfish spin on it and then have Buffy react by throwing Angel to the dogs, without her even asking for any proof that what the char says about Angel is real.

I wish I could use examples, but I don't think it's a good idea to start pointing out which particular fics I'm having a problem with right now.

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

I agree wholeheartedly. It was a good rant. :)
I can't enjoy fics in which there is characters bashing . This bothers me a lot.
Even if I don't like very much a character , I don't need to see him/her portrayed so badly . It doesn't do any good to the heroes indeed.
Or the authors has to make a very good job explaining why this character turned into a monster.

[liliaeth]

Exactly, there's a difference between turning a character into a villain and bashing them. But it's the difference in intention. It's hard to explain really.

[amavel-bel.livejournal.com]

Excellent discussion you started with this post.

There are some characters I don't like, but I don't like to read fics where they are offended with no reason. I understand that sometimes showing a certain character in a bad way is a plot device, but even so it must have some coherence.

We should start a no-bashing campaign ;-).

Kisses

[ebonypsyche.livejournal.com]

I just want to say I love you for this post.

I had to search for fics that didn't bash Buffy or Anya. Now I'm a conditional Spuffy reader (though I adore Spike/Xander/Buffy fics *shrug*) , but that doesn't mean I hate any of the characters. I might really, really, really dislike one or two *cough Riley cough* but I try to show them in a fair light,even if they happened to be diliked by other characters in the fics.

ok I'm off my soapbox now.

[st_salieri.livejournal.com]

Ah, I love this rant, and I agree. I think you make an excellent point about writing the characters you may not like as the other characters on the show see them. None of them are perfect, but there was love and friendship there. I think there is a part of Buffy that will always love Angel and Riley. I hate to see "agenda fics" than bash Riley/Angel/whoever in a weak attempt to promote Buffy/Spike. For one thing, it's very lazy writing. And for another, I don't think it does Buffy/Spike any favors. If you have to bash other ships just to make your own look good, it doesn't say much for the strength of your own ship.